Edit Wars over Subjective Tropes

The Broken Base of Final Fantasy XIII strikes again!

So there's an edit war going on between some people on the FFXIII boards about scrappies. One side (including myself, up til now) claims that since the majority, or at the very least the loudest, section of the people who have played dislike these characters, they should be labeled as scrappies, but someone else is trying to remove the entry for them.

Since this is one of the most subjective tropes for an already controversial game, should I go ahead and let it get cut for the sake of removing a subjective trope? Should I try and make a compromise citing YMMV or that they may eventually be Rescued from the heap? Or should it stay in?

Cut the subjective.

It's stuff like this that makes me believe that we should go after Subjective Tropes with the same fervor we go after newly-made redlinks. Just post a notice on the top of the site saying that we're cleaning up subjective tropes, and move all examples to the respective page. Maybe even make a Subjectie namespace.

I honestly don't get the "cut on sight" sentiment regarding subjective tropes. Sure, we should stay away from controversy, but "anything with a subjective shade to it" is too big of a category to stay away from.

The subjective/objective thing is much less of a binary distinction than advertised. For example, Generic Doomsday Villain is not marked as subjective, even though it has some obviously subjective elements. Is it in? Is it out?

I think what we should be acting against is not subjective tropes, it's the hijacking of the voice of the wiki. It's possible to say things that are objective truth regarding subjective tropes, and a lot of legit, informative "borderline" tropes thrive on that, subjective banner or no.

edited 26th Sep '10 7:54:56 AM by TripleElation

^ That...makes sense. Forget my previous statement. However, there are certainly some subjective tropes, mainly those associated with fan reaction, that definitely gather a lot of controversy (TLA, Sonichu, Seltzer and Friedberg) anybody? Now, I'm not entirely certain why their existence on those pages deserved a lock, but I can understand FE's reasoning that he doesn't want them there- so maybe we can post a notice somewhere, on the SBIH, Fan Dumb, etc. pages that you should think very hard about putting it on a main page?

Almost all tropes can have a measure of subjectivity to them. But the ones that are completely subjective, like So Bad Its Horrible, the Crowning Moments of whatever, Fridge Logic, and the ones that are not only subjective but insulting, like Fan Dumb and Hatedom are virtually guaranteed to be natter magnets, even if they aren't Flame Bait on a particular page. Those are the ones that should not be on a main page.

edited 26th Sep '10 8:42:04 AM by Madrugada

Hmm. Maybe it would be useful to have a distinct label, beyond 'subjective', that can be applied to the articles we don't want reference to in a work's trope list. Maddy ^ listed some of them.

'Flame Bait' is pretty direct. Saying "We don't want Flame Bait in trope lists." feels pretty natural.

Maybe a Flame Bait warning? Somebody designs a graphic, we post it on the pages that apply:

"There are subjective tropes, and then there are these. While you may believe this to be true, and you might be right, other people tend to have rather vocal opinions about this subject. So, while you can add examples on this page, please keep these tropes off of the main pages."

That works. A banner with this image and the text above would do the trick.

edited 26th Sep '10 9:15:24 AM by FastEddie

Yeah! That's good. Like the icon, too.

^^ Very neat.

I also like the "and then there are these" text.

The banner.

Tropes that would have the banner: So Bad Its Horrible, Fan Dumb, Wall Banger, Broken Base, Hate Dumb off the top of my head.

I'd make the text bold so it just stands out a tad more, but it looks good.

Looks like this, installed.

Bolder and more noticeable, FE. It won't work if it's too easy to overlook. I know you like subtle and understated, but there's a reason stop signs and fire trucks are bright red.

Other pages that should have it: Dethroning Moment Of Suck for sure, and probably all of the Moments pages. Both the Nightmare Fuel pages. Narm. The Scrappy. Canon Sue for sure, maybe some of the other Sue pages as well.

edited 26th Sep '10 10:22:32 AM by Madrugada

Hm, pretty nice. I'd motion for having it in the style of the current subjective banner so we could have a theme going for various banners we might end up having (e.g. "here thar be a spoiler hive"). But I suppose that's not essential.

edited 26th Sep '10 10:25:20 AM by TripleElation

Try it now.

That works. Oh, add Unpleasable Fanbase to the list of pages that should probably have it.

Is this the part where we go after all pages with those tropes and move examples over to the relevant pages?

Is it possible that we could have an index of the tropes that have the banner, so we have an easy-to-find list of what shouldn't be on work pages?

^^ It is always that part.

^ Go for it.

Are these tropes those for which no exceptions can be made?

I mean, should we be removing The Scrappy from Star Wars given the overwhelming media interpretation of Jar Jar Binks as that trope (he even named the German version of the page)? Granted, that's the exception not the rule, but clarification would still be useful, as while I'm largely neutral on the issue myself it seems like that example blurs the line between subjective and objective in this instance.

There may be others.

Also, someone mentioned Broken Base above - that isn't listed as a subjective trope, so should that really have this banner?

^^ I'll just... get right on that then. Any suggestions for titles? Are these just Flame Bait tropes or ultra-subjective tropes? Or both?

Well, try Tropes Of Flame