Expand to include Yamato Nadeshiko types: Tall Dark And Bishoujo

Tall, Dark and Bishoujo currently is limited to aloof characters.

It seems to me however, that in Japanese works characters that are tall dark and bishoujo tends to be associated two common characters. The Ojou and the Yamato Nadeshiko. The personality being associated with it reserve which comes across as aloofness in The Ojou (or sometimes a Kuudere), and comes across as modesty in the Yamato Nadeshiko.

Thus I see these two character types as related to this trope, but currently the trope only recognizes one of them. (I may be remembering incorrectly, but I seem to remember in the past Yamato Nadeshiko was listed as a type associated with Tall, Dark and Bishoujo.)

Perhaps a soft split is in order?

The issue with that is that with Yamato Nadeshiko most are not tall Pale skin + dark brown or black hair is all that's required. (there are some subversions with purple hair and Belldandy's is light brown.)

The Ojou can be all over the map so I don't think that fits.

edited 12th Nov '10 1:14:29 PM by Raso

No. You misunderstand.

The point isn't that all Ojou or all Yamato Nadeshiko are Tall, Dark and Bishoujo.

Rather the point is that the characteristic of being Tall, Dark and Bishoujo is strongly associated with being either an Ojou or a Yamato Nadeshiko. At least that seems to be what I see in Japanese media. Do you disagree?

In other words:

Ojou/Yamato Nadeshiko =/=> Tall, Dark and Bishoujo

rather

Tall, Dark and Bishoujo => Ojou or Yamato Nadeshiko

If I'm understanding you correctly, it's like the western Tall, Dark, and Handsome male may be the romantic hero love interest or he may be the Affably Evil Villain? If that's the case, I'd say a mention on the page is certainly in order. I don't know Japanese works well enough to weigh in on whether it's the case, though.

^ Yeah, something like that.

I am still confused... what Japanese see as "perfect looking girl" isn't Tall, Dark and Bishōjo pale skinned dark haired girl (being short is required for the look) part of the reason why Kiri Komori from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei became Ms. Fanservice.

I can't think of a single one of those tropes that would fit Tall, Dark and Bishōjo.

EDIT. Put forth an idea to split Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette that would cover pretty must all of this I think.

edited 12th Nov '10 4:55:29 PM by Raso

I see what you're saying. Seems pretty reasonable, since when I first read the trope it comes across as an appearance thing.

May as well explore every connotation of that, since that's what tropes are for

Maybe we should rename this? Get rid of that whole "Tall" thing it is a massive misdirection in a trope name. (also get rid of the aloofness too)

"Tall dark and handsome" is an English idiom. If you want to remove the "tall", consider changing the title completely.

edit: which is exactly what you said; leaving for fyi purposes

edited 16th Nov '10 6:48:42 PM by rodneyAnonymous

But isn't being "tall and willowy" part of the Tall, Dark and Bishoujo visual appeal?

I mean, sure she's usually short compared to the male lead, but she's taller then the other girls. Makes her stand out more.

These would be examples:

Aoyama Motoko in Love Hina. Has the aloofness ojou vibe. (Of course the male protagonist gets to see beyond the surface appearances)

Madoka Ayukawa in Kimagure Orange Road would be another one. Similar Ojou-sama vibe.

Mio from K-On is lampshaded as a subversion. People first tend to think she's Tall, Dark and Bishoujo, but then we discover she's actually got more Shrinking Violet in her. It's pretty clear even in story that they know her character image is playing around with this trope.

Those would be ones all on the Ojou side.

On the Yamato Nadeshiko side the ones that leap first to mind are Belldandy and Kasumi Tendo as exemplifying the attitude I'm thinking about. Not aloof so much as being reserved and modest. Of course as pointed out, Belldandy has light brown hair, while Kasumi is dark brown hair.

One that has more of the look is Kyoko Onatashi from Maison Ikkoku, who is playing with this trope as her appearance is all set up for her to be a Yamato Nadeshiko, but then as we get to know her we discover she's really a Tsundere who is suppressing her normal attitudes because of grief.

Miki Hiiragi from Lucky Star would be an example of how this trope is often used for Yamato Nadeshiko Satellite Characters. You make your character Tall, Dark and Bishoujo, make her the mother and add an apron, and you don't need to do much character development, since it signals "Yamato Nadeshiko mother" to the viewers.

Tsubaki from Soul Eater would be this trope played very straight. Tall, Dark and Bishoujo Yamato Nadeshiko Lady of War.

PS: What happened to the Ojou Sama trope?

edited 17th Nov '10 7:15:50 AM by Sackett

It's Ojou.

EDIT: Never mind, ignore me.

edited 17th Nov '10 9:09:56 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

No, we used to have a trope called Ojou Sama specifically about the use of the honorific- and how it now often has yuri overtones.

Maybe it got lumped under Japanese Honorifics. I wouldn't know, I've never seen any such page.

You're thinking of Onee-sama.

And no, the trope should not be expanded to include Yamato Nadeshiko.

The Tall, Dark and Bishoujo trope wasn't created as an appearance trope, but as a Character Archetype trope. Specifically, an important character archetype of the Girls' Love genre, dating back to Shiroi Heya No Futari, the first Girls' Love manga. This is the beautiful woman who radiates "coolness" to the point that, if the setting is Girls' Love friendly, even the girls would want her because of the sheer aura she projects. And yes, she would often have long black hair to contrast her innocent partner's Hair of Gold.

To use Boys' Love terms, she often plays the Seme to the Uke of a more innocent girl. She plays a similar role as the Bifauxnen, except she keeps her feminine appearance. A Yamato Nadeshiko is this trope's opposite in everything but typical appearance.

edited 17th Nov '10 9:27:49 AM by Servbot

Isn't it supposed to be about a physical appearance that signals or correlates with a certain Character Archetype?

If that isn't the case the it seems a rather poor name.

You seem to be saying that girls who are not tall, dark, or bishoujo should still be counted for this trope if they are aloof. Shouldn't such a trope have a name that focuses on aloofness?

Also you are right, I was thinking of Onee-sama. What an embarrassing mistake.

Been working to many late nights this week.

edited 18th Nov '10 8:24:20 AM by Sackett

It is a very poor name which is why I brought it up.

This trope is seen as a visual trope thanks to its name... I brought a YKTTW[1] counterpart to Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette (which is Pale-Skinned dark hair people are seen as creepy) which hasn't gotten off the ground thanks to people directing me to this trope.

edited 18th Nov '10 6:24:00 PM by Raso

I've thought there should be an appearance trope for women who are tall but are not uncomfortable about it. Glamazon, I guess?

Hate to bump a thread, but anyone still think we should come up with a different name? I do, since the tall part doesn't always apply here.

See I think the trope should be about characters that are Tall, Dark and Bishoujo were that character design is used as short hand to demonstrate certain characteristics.

edited 6th Dec '10 7:52:03 AM by Sackett

^ That's what it's intended to be.

Well according to Servbot appearance doesn't matter at all, and looking at the examples in seems that a lot of people are treating it that way, because they are listing ojou-samas that are not tall or dark.

If it is supposed to be about appearance being used to imply a certain characterization, then we need to clear out the examples and make the description more clear.

I also would stand by my original intention of adding Yamato Nadeshiko types to the trope since that is how the appearance is used.

Well, the name is kinda what happens when the trope was formulated outside of Tv Tropes. As the description said, it was first thought up by a fanfic writer from the shoujoai.com forums.

Doing a quicky search there, this is the earliest post I could find where it's used.

And here is another post I could find that has the main descriptions of the trope as described by the forum members. (Hmm... and it seems I made a mistake. The dark hair is needed. Ah well.)

Now, I'm unsure just how prolific the name actually is amongst the Girls' Love community (should probably PM C Banana or someone else active in the Girls' Love community to join in this conversation and give their two cents), but this specific trope is noticable enough that Erica Friedman, the closest thing the west has to an authority in the Girls' Love genre, mentioned it (though not by this name) in one of her reviews of a Girls Love story from the seventies, succinctly describing it as the "stately brunette" character that the "average blonde" character falls for.

edited 8th Dec '10 2:33:08 PM by Servbot

"Stately brunette", yup.

It seems to me that the physical appearance is rather important.

It also seems to me that my suggested expansion is actually related to this other version even more closely than I thought.

If the tall, dark bishoujo ojou-sama makes the girls fall for her, then the tall, dark bishoujo Yamato Nadeshiko makes the men fall for her.

The Oujo-sama motif is stately and aloof. The Yamato Nadeshiko is demure and modest.

Hmmmm.....

I was just thinking.... it would be rather amusing to see the motifs being mistaken for each other by the Wrong Genre Savvy character.

In fact I think I have seen jokes like that. Usually about a demure, modest Yamato Nadeshiko being mistaken for the stately, aloof Onee-sama.

Maybe a soft-split would be the best way to handle it?

It's an appearance motif that is used to signal one thing if it's in a Girls' Love story, and a different thing if it's in a normal romance.

edited 8th Dec '10 7:57:19 PM by Sackett

Well, from what I remember of this trope back some years ago on shoujoai.com, I remember that Sachiko from Maria-sama ga Miteru and Chikane from Kannazuk No Miko were pretty much the archetypical examples of this trope.

If Tall, Dark and Bishoujo does correspond to those two characters, it probably is supposed to talk about characters that can combine mental strength, charisma, leadership and elegance. From what I recall the appearance did matter because outside of TV Tropes, I've only heard it refer to females that are tall and long dark hair.

Mind you, it has been a long while since I've seen this term used amongst the Girls' Love fandom.

Very true. This trope seems to cover strong female types, regardless of height.

The tall part is nonindicative. There needs to be a separate trope for tall and beautiful women who are not awkward about it to cover the appearance part.