Sexism In Anime

[[quoteblock]]Another example: out of the two competent female mangaka, one sucks at drawing backgrounds (but is very proficient with faces) and needs help from other males to even get serialized (because the concept of panty shots and how to make them work and be alluring and not forced is something women aren't supposed to understand on a gut level?), the other, is touted as a storytelling genius, [[stike:has her prose scripts repeatedly described as much more inferior to the name that a male mangaka draws based off her work]] but apparently wile her prose is deemed excellent, what makes the resulting manga so great is that the author directly works from the descriptions to create his own name, with his own rythm and style. You know, kind of like what they do at Marvel, which revolutionized the history of comic books?

I agree that Bakuman has its sexist moments, but don't go off inventing stuff.

It also has male characters who have little to no personality.

I would agree with Death Note, although it was relatively easy to ignore, since there aren't a whole lot of female characters there, anyway, and what with the villain protagonist and everything, there's a lot of behaviour ranging from jerkass to complete monster, so the disparaging of women is not as obvious to me unless I really think about it.

Although, as I said, there aren't a lot of female characters and Misa, who is the main female character, seems to get treated worse than her male co-stars, even though she outlives most of the male main characters.

Are you kidding me? There are far more male characters who actually have personalities that can't be summed up in two words "Love Interest". Even out of the (all male) editor team, at least four have strong, well-developed personalities (yes, even Miura - even though he's unlikeable, he's a complex character and we can understand where he's coming from), and most of the male mangakas, again, have really strong personalities that are portrayed in a positive light (Niizuma comes to mind immediately, as well as Fukuda - even the otaku stereotype who drew "Too Human" was given character development courtesy of his editor, who, again, showed an understanding of human behavior that you wouldn't think he had from his cocky behavior). Nakai, who's arguably given the same treatment as Iwase in the sense that they're portrayed as extremely negative gender-based stereotypes, spent most of his early days as a woobie, had interesting internal conflict and motivations (wanting to get published vs wanting to stay as an assistant where its safe), and even had a crowning episode of awesome involved drawing in the cold, and the latest chapter fleshes out his background even more (as well as hinting at a possible comeback)... in short, he is portrayed as MORE than a stereotype, with deeply human flaws and deeply human virtues, whereas Iwase isn't treated with the same level of complexity or sympathy at all. The only female person that approaches Nakai's characterization in terms of complexity is Miho, and my feelings on her can be summed up in the post I linked.

I can understand if there are more male characters than female characters, because if I understand correctly, that's an accurate reflection of the Japanese shonen manga industry, but the depth of characterization of male and female characters cannot be compared.

Can you really, honestly say that the female characters in Bakuman are more interesting, well-characterized, non-cardboard stereotypes compared to the male characters? Can you really?

(EDIT: "because the concept of panty shots and how to make them work and be alluring and not forced is something women aren't supposed to understand on a gut level?"

Just a thought, but is it possible that this just reflects the male fetish for sexually innocent, infantile women? Which is the whole point of moe, right?)

edited 21st Jun '10 1:49:02 AM by Anarchy

^ Well if I was asked to draw crotch shots I'd feel very awkward about it and wouldn't really know where to start.

Also, Aoiki drew realistic panties, while what was expected of her were panties that fit tightly around unrealistically huge, inflated vulvas. I mean, what are we, to be enticed by such a thing, Chimps?

I'd expect a professional mangaka to understand the rudiments of "research". If you are faced with drawing material that you're not comfortable with, follow these simple steps: identify your target demographic, read works targeted towards that demographic, note what kind of style those works use, and use my research to help you with your drawing. What do you think Ken Akamatsu does on all his research trips?

I think it's understandable that she might be uncomfortable with the subject, but the fact that it was made such a huge, convoluted plot point, the fact that the authors CHOSE to use this kind of subject as a plot point, with, of course, the chance for ecchi fantasies featuring Aoki-chan, gives off more of a moemoe "awww lookie me I'm so innocent and cute and virginal I know noooothing at all about what men like even though I'm a grown woman" vibe than anything else.

I'm female, and seriously, if I could draw and if I were asked to draw panty shots, I'd probably just go look up some ecchi series and practice from those. I mean, if I were a professional, and if I were getting paid for this, I assume that I would have enough artistic knowhow to deal with issues like this.

edited 21st Jun '10 2:29:28 AM by Anarchy

^ Makes sense.

I still think I'd have a lot of trouble coming up with shoujo stories. For some reason, they do tug at my heartsrings, and the stares and words exchanged can be as exhilarating as the greatest shonen battle, but I have no idea how to write that. The tropes seem far less clear cut. To make a fun fight, all you need is Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot, if you're lazy, but how to make good romance without falling into uninteresting Mary Sue?

Hm. This is getting offtopic.

One of the reasons I really liked reading Twilight is that it felt so much like a Shoujo manga. While other guys see Edward as some sort of unfair, unrealistic comeptition, I saw him more as an Escapist Character. Although I felt uncomfortable about his stalking and controlling, that's just creepy.

A shonen series I thought did rather well with the sexism is Iron Wok Jan. Outside the inflated breasts of the major female characters (including Jan's octogenarian grandmother), they're not treated condescendingly (except by Jan, who's a Jerkass), don't fall behind, and don't get stuck in the cheerleader role after their first plotline.

Bakuman gets a lot of heat because that second chapter sexist spiel more or less turns out to be objective truth within the story.

"that second chapter sexist spiel more or less turns out to be objective truth within the story"

Best summary of the issue.

@Raw: Okay, you get some serious Did Do The Research props for that thing with the bonobos. Made me laugh because I know what you also seem to know

Bakuman has... Issues. Seriously, there's a scans_daily post floating around that shows some of the more cringeworhy moments.

^^ But why does Anime never take the money angle, in regards to males? (Okay, they actually doit a lot in shoujo: for some reason rich kids are uber gorgeous supermen with perfect intellect and high sports performance)

[[youtube:lGGZ12SerVg&feature=related]]

This never fails to get a laugh from me... I GOT BUDGIT!!! BUDGIT!!! LADIES!

^^You mean This one?

Oh, hey, look who's there!

One thing: try not to confuse an author who has genuine trouble writing an effective female character with one who is actually sexist.

Some things may come across as sexist, but honestly when it comes to an issue like this my opinion is intent is much more important than content, in that situation the only people who're honestly going to be offended by it are either out of the loop on the intent, or just looking for something to be outraged about.

Writing believable characters is the hardest part of writing a story, and it only gets harder when you yourself can't relate all that well to them.

For example, there is a Yuri manga, the name eludes me at the moment, but the message in it was basically "All men are evil rapists, and the ones who aren't are just pretending", to put it lightly. That was sexist.

Whereas, i don't really think Naruto is particularly sexist, It's targetted at a younger male audience, the earlier arcs are definitely targetted at an audience who're probably still in the midst of "Girls have cooties" stage, and I honestly believe Kishimoto simply doesn't know what to do with his female characters, there are some notable times where's he's tried to develop them, but bailed halfway.

Which actually brings up another point, he has tried to do it, but it gets shunted to the side, i'd hazard a guess he's probably putting up with some Executive Meddling, but there's not much to back that up.

Ironically enough with Bakuman, one the people who work on it is Female.

Some things may come across as sexist, but honestly when it comes to an issue like this my opinion is intent is much more important than content

It depends, but really, content is frequently a very good indicative of sexism. We mustn't confuse sexism with misogyny or misandry ( google spellchecker has the former but not the latter), "all men are abusive rapists" is misandry, having all/most of the female characters be ultimately ineffectual could be considered sexism (probably unitentional sexism) depending on the context.

Is this the bit where I point out that just because someone doesn't intend for something to be sexist doesn't mean that isn't actually sexist. (A relevant link)

It just means that instead of being rooted in maliciousness, it comes from a place of ignorance.

I mean, contrast the fact that Most Writers Are Male is used as an explanation for underused/badly written female characters because they can't relate to them. Now consider how common it is for female writers to do the same with male characters.

^ Quite common in my experience, actually.

Uh. No.

Uh. what?

I think probably most non-sexist manga/anime would have to be Fullmetal Alchemist.

Actually, I think Naruto is the LEAST sexist of the Big 3. Just because you don't have a lot of female characters who aren't developed a lot doesn't make a work sexist, just male-oriented. One Piece is much worse with its anorexic women with Gag Boobs. And Bleach had TWO Distressed Damsel arcs.

The reason why one piece has a lot of those is because Echiiro's Oda's hot wife was pregnant at the time. Or least, thats what executives probably thought, After wards, the desgins stuck.

Interestingly enough, I'll bet you that Naruto would come across as a lot less sexist if they dropped a bridge on the whole Saskue thing. 'cos that's my biggest problem with it, is that the way that Sakura's feelings about Saskue can come across as very...demeaning I guess. I don't think it's intended to be that way. More as of late it's getting more confusing emotionally (meaning better), so it's not the straight sexist type trope.

Of the big three, if I had to guess I'd say that the most sexist would be One Piece, after thinking about it. Don't think of the characters, think of the world design (which is a very important part of manga, and Shonen in particular IMO). Both Naruto and Bleach, in their worlds are rather egalitarian. Both have women who are powerful, are in positions of power, do things for non-man related reasons, etc. Bleach with the damsel in distress storylines is meh, but neither were really damsel in distress per se. Both were the bad guy trying to gain control of the "ultimate power". It just so happened that both powers were contained within women. It might not be intended as such now, but at the time, the whole point of why Aizen captured and tried to brainwash Orihame was that her ability to reject reality may be the only serious threat to his plans. I'm still of the thought that the end of Aizen will come because he played Break The Cutie once too much

One Piece is by far the worst. Luffy's crew isn't bad, but outside of that, how many women do you see in other pirate crews? Not many at all.

edited 21st Jun '10 8:59:36 AM by Karmakin

I think probably most non-sexist manga/anime would have to be Fullmetal Alchemist.

While I wouldn't assume it's the most egalitarian manga of all time, it's definitely very good about the whole thing. No one is objectified, everyone has the potential to be awesome.

^^ Wouldn't that be closer to Truth in Television than sexism?

On Sakura, my impression is that she's over the childish love, but she wants to redeem him, or perhaps it's a more The Only One Allowed to Defeat You angle, due to her wanting someone who understands him to be with him when he dies.

When all is said and done, Sakura does have balls the size of the moon (), She's actually a bit of a Screaming Warrior if you look hard enough.

edited 21st Jun '10 9:23:40 AM by Billabong

^Hopefully not literally