During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
RIP Toriyama
And a handy 'Yes' to Royce "Red Dragon", one of the more viscerally nasty villains Spector's faced.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Satomi, Belial and Royce.
to Satomi, Belial and Royce.
Honestly, understanding DC continuity would probably require a doctorate in quantum mechanics before too long.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eh, maybe not the WORST, but still seems worse than, say, most of what Moon Knight faces. I'll give a yes.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Evolution Requires Sacrifice.
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Royce.
Feels good, don't it?
Yes to Royce.
@Imperial that’s false, even quantum physicists couldn’t understand it
to Lady Satomi, Schuyler Belial/Morning Star, and Red Dragon/Aleister Ravenna/Germain Royce.
@ACW: That idea of splitting up the folder could work.
Okay, one more reaaally quick one before my last from Moench's run. From issue 17 of the 80s run we've got Alexander Latimer.
Who is Mr. Latimer? What has he done?
An obese Corrupt Corporate Executive currently involved in a shady building construction project, when one of Latimer's goons is accidentally killed by Moon Knight, Latimer's true purpose for trying to have his shady building built is revealed in due order. The building is, in fact, a decoy for a nuclear bomb buried beneath it.
Latimer's scheme is very simple—use the nuke to blow up New York and wipe out everyone on it. The placement of the bomb will also knock out communications all across the Eastern seaboard, simultaneously leaving America helpless as some foreign powers Latimer has struck a deal with to lead a disastrous attack on America from the east. Latimer simply intends to fly west with a meaty paycheck while the entire country is decimated by the foreign invaders he's been dealing with.
Latimer's not even loyal to his own minions. Latimer tricks his second-in-command and the replacement goon he's using to fill in for the one Moon Knight killed into setting off the nuke early, which would result in both of them being caught up in the nuclear blast just because they're slightly more convenient to Latimer dead than alive. This treachery is enough that when the plot is thwarted Latimer's own goons turned against him in court the second they can.
Any mitigating factors?
Nothing really here I can say that I haven't before. Latimer is strictly a scale over style guy—villains knock off their minions pretty regularly, but not too many villains try and have cities the size of New York destroyed and fewer try and top that off by knowingly paralyzing their own nation's communications system just as they're about to be attacked by a foreign power. About the only ones peeling over him in terms of scale are Nimrod and Belial, and even then I'd say the margin between these three and 95% of the rest of the rogues gallery is enough for them to be distinguished. Latimer is barely pulling through compared to them, but it's enough.
Conclusion?
Pretty flavorless keeper, buuuut I think a keep nonetheless.
Edited by Scraggle on Jan 19th 2021 at 5:30:29 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Yes to Latimer.
Goku Black
Latimer
Ultimate Moral Compass
Red Dragon and Latimer
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nuke NYC, help foreign adversaries attack US...I'll give a yes.
Though I think it's issue 16.
Edited by ACW on Jan 19th 2021 at 7:51:00 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Alexander Latimer.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Latimer.
Feels good, don't it?
So the only way Superboy-Prime gets removed from this list is if someone else writes him in another issue as the proper hero he ends as in Dark Knights: Death Metal and doesn't make him evil again like in that one Teen Titans issue? I could try to explain what happens to him in that story.
Edited by despoa on Jan 19th 2021 at 9:17:31 AM
Satomi, Belial, Red Dragon, Latimer
Edited by RobertTYL on Jan 19th 2021 at 9:18:13 PM
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Latimer
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
It's more so if he's consistently written by multiple writers as having been redeemed.
Edited by papyru30 on Jan 19th 2021 at 7:19:58 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Latimer
Now, for my final Moon Knight candidate for the time being...from the 2018 run by Max Bemis:
Who is he? What has he done?
The man known simply as Ernst was a vicious Nazi during World War II, a cheerful part of the cabal that brought about the creation and support of the Red Skull and the cloned Hitler, Hate-Monger. However, when Ernst saw the direction of defeat for his side the war was taking, Ernst quickly found an out by murdering a Jewish man—Yitz Perlman—and stealing his identity, living undercover in America as a Jewish man while routinely cracking "self-deprecating" jokes that are in truth his racist side peeking through.
Serving as the beloved "Uncle Yitz" of Marc Spector when he was a child, Ernst was soon enough discovered by Spector in the process of torturing a Jewish boy to death in a secret basement...as Ernst gleefully brags, he's discovered the path to eternal youth via tapping into the pleasure centers of the brain and doing what makes one most happy. And what Ernst loves most is killing Jews, and has been doing it for years.
Bragging that he won't hesitate to make Marc his next victim if the boy rats him out, Ernst ends up disappearing from his role as Perlman, seemingly vanishing into nothingness...until he returns years later, having founded the "Société des Sadiques", translating to Society of Sadists, a cabal of serial killers, mass murderers, and other vicious freaks who engage in torture and murder like it's going out of style, all with Ernst's support and blessing.
Luring Marc to him—now Moon Knight—and taking advantage of his growing mental instability, Ernst begins subjecting Moon Knight to all sorts of trials and torments both physically and psychologically, from making him fight a rabid dolphin to the death to having him brutalize other members of the Society until they're left half-dead. Finally, deciding to make Moon Knight his heir, Ernst gives him a final test....to kill a little girl the Society captured.
After a long battle of his psychosis, Moon Knight refuses, to which Ernst responds by drugging him and taking him on a long walk through a psychedelic drug trip in which Ernst not-so-subtly reveals he killed the little girl anyway and now, unless Moon Knight falls in line, he'll have his child daughter murdered by the Society as well. After failing to force Moon Knight to embrace evil and kill in his name, questing to eventually take over the planet with his Society, Ernst is killed by the enraged god inhabiting Moon Knight, with the Society responding to this by trying to kill the hero's family on Ernst's backup orders and unleashing the villainous Sun God to kill Moon Knight, all of which ultimately fail.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Nada, Ernst's a total sadist and Nazi who just enjoys hurting people. All of his "loving" behavior towards Marc is just him wanting to use Marc in his worldwide takeover and make him a perfect heir, and when Marc consistently refuses, Ernst just degrades to threats towards Marc's young daughter.
Heinousness?
Ernst is admittedly lacking in the high-digit bodycount pretty much every other MK villain coming through here has bar the rapist...thing that makes him Keep, though? His personal, despicable level of villainy. From being a Serial killer and torturer of Jews, to braggingly and gleefully revealing how much he loved taking part in the Holocaust and helping create and empower Red Skull and Hate-Monger (who both went on to kill millions), to founding a society of killers empowered to continue their atrocities, to trying to force Moon Knight to kill a toddler girl—then killing her himself and trying the same on Moon Knight's kid. It's vile, it's personally deplorable, and it's unique enough even for the hero's villain's gallery for Ernst to hit easily, especially since child murder so...specifically targeted is extremely rare.
Final Verdict?
Easy Keep
Edited by Ravok on Jan 19th 2021 at 6:26:33 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Red Dragon, Latimer, and Ernst.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Showtime!
to Red Dragon, Latimer, and Ernst
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ernst
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Red Dragon
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."