During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Notify the thread and delete.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Otto von Reichenbach.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
New proposal, from Legend of the Red Reaper.
Who's the candidate?
Ganesh, king of demons.
What does he do?
After raping a woman, Ganesh convinces her to give him their child Ayla by threatening to slaughter her comrades, the demon hunters known as Reapers. To frame her as having given the child up willingly, he gives her a vial of his blood, which is known to be highly addictive and slow aging. For the next forty years, Ganesh lets his demon cronies abuse the child however they please. Eventually, the Reapers, an organization of half-demons, attack Ganesh's base, freeing Ayla and driving the demons into exile.
Some time later, Ganesh manipulates an ambitious knight named Sigrun into kidnapping Ayla to take some of her blood. Using said blood to make a group of ruffians into superhuman berserkers, Ganesh has Sigrun raid the Reapers' castle. The fight is an absolute massacre, with all the Reapers but Ayla being slaughtered or captured along with any humans they can't smuggle out of the castle. Ganesh and his demons join in the slaughter, the demon king personally slaying Ayla's adopted father and her swordfighting teacher.
As Ayla goes on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge against the demons, Ganesh rebeals that all this had nothong to do with the Reapers at all. No, he ordered the massacre to get Ayla back as his abuse toy. As the demons continue to Rape, Pillage, and Burn the village near the castle, Ganesh orders his prisoners killed before confronting Ayla. Father and daughter get in a final battle before one of Ayla's comrades removes the demon king's head.
Heinousness?
Big Bad, sets it. Despite being rather low-scale for a demon king in a fantasy film, he makes up for it by being disgustingly personal.
Mitigating factors?
Nothing indicates demons lack agency, and Ganesh is mothing but a ruthless sadist angered that his punching bag is gone.
Verdict?
Easy
Goku Black
Ganesh
Here is one more candidate from Tomb Raider
What is the Work
After talking about original timeline, now I will be talking about the first reboot of the series, which resulted in the Legend timeline. Starting from Tomb Raider: Legend game, from the different developers, the setting changes a few things, like the fate of Lara's parents and use this as an overarching plot of the main trilogy of games, which included the remake of the original Tomb Raider game and Tomb Raider: Underworld (along with two of its DLC). Now, we already have a keeper from there, Jacqueline Natla. But after checking out two of its spin-off games, Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light and Lara Croft and the Temple of Osiris, I think I have one candidate worth of discussing.
Okay, both of these games involve Lara Croft getting caught in the events, where some angry evil god got free and she must stop him from attacking the world. In the first game, Lara faces against Aztec God Xolotl and stops him from covering the world in eternal darkness. In second game Lara faces against a familiar evil Egyptian god, whose original version we discussed already.
Enter Set from the Legend timeline.
Who is Set?
Once a beloved brother of Osiris, Set soon grow jealous of his brother and started a war against him, killing him and taking over as ruler of Egypt. When Isis, Osiris' wife, resurrected Osiris for long enough to conceive a child (Horus) from him, only for Set to learn about this, imprison both Isis and Horus inside a tomb in the city of the dead Duat and cut apart Osiris and scatter his body parts across the land. As his kingdom declined, Set goes to Duat in search of greater power, only to get lose there without Osiris' staff. During his thousand years of imprisonment there, Set get himself busy by torturing and corrupting a fellow god Khepri (a beneloved god, who has a form of giant Scarab) to be his mindless minion.
(the start and 4:56 time mark for Set's appearence and 5:37 for him enslaving souls)
In present time, as Lara Croft and Carter Bell hunt for the artifacts in the tomb in right above Duat, they accidentally get cursed and free Isis and Horus from their imprisonment. Because of the curse, they can't leave Duat, but as they descended in it, Set reveals that this event led him on a verge on discovering his way back to the world. Corrupting the circle of life and death, Set enslaves the souls of hundreds of people and uses them as his minions (putting them in skeletons and other creatures) to force them to attack Lara, Carter, Isis and Horus and get killed by them. Isis tells Lara that they could only defeat Set now by gathering all the parts of Osiris back to have him fight Set. As they do that, Set constantly tries to kill them, corrupts and brainwashes worshippers of Sobek (a Crocodile people, who worship a god, who has a form of giant Crocodile) to be his minions too (leading to countless of them getting killed by Lara during the game), enslaving the souls of many monks to serve as suicide bombers against Lara in the game, has the heroes fight and kill a broken Khepri, while boasting how he corrupted him, and Sobek. Along the way Set tries to use Sobek's powers and Osiris' machines to control the sun (to put the world in an eternal night), make eternal rains and put the world in an eternal winter.
As his schemes get thwarted by the heroes and they gather back almost all pieces of Osiris, they go to face Set himself to get the last piece, only for Osiris himself to appear and help them fight Set. During the battle Set announce his intention to devour all creation, until he alone will be the center of all things. But as he gets overpowered, he tries to appeal to Isis and Horus out of fear of eternal imprisonment, only for giant hands behind him to grab him and drag him in the pit.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None that holds. While the heroes come across a mural, which depicts Set protecting Ra and keeping travelers from harm and as Isis and Horus explained, he was once beloved brother. But they themselves confirmed that he is not the same person anymore and a "shadow of his former self", to the point of saying that "the Set you see here is nothing but a myth now". And they said that "Set has broken a holy circle and seek to bring the world to ruin". And the game also treats Set as nothing but a selfish asshole during the rest of the game, destroying any excuses he may had.
3:45 time mark
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Compared to Natla and Unnamable from "Lara Croft and the Frozen Omen" comic, I think Set stands out due to being more sadistic and unique in the fact that he enslaves souls of the dead people, denying them rest and uses them as Cannon Fodder, which he could resurrect again and again. Most of his minions in the game are the souls that he enslaves and sended to fight Lara, resulting in them dying over and over. Also, the way he uses some of them as suicide bombers also terrifying. There is also him openly bragging about breaking a beneloved god Khepri to the point that he is nothing but a mindless hostile beast in the game (which is also treated as revolting) and his intention in the end to "devour all creation" also makes him stand out in both scale and pettiness (as he wants to do that, solely so he could be "a center of all things").
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Ganesh and Set. What about Xolotl?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
set
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Too generic, all he has for himself is wanting to conquer the world through putting it in eternal darkness and killing Vasco (a criminal warlord) and his men in a generic way in the present and some tribe of warriors in the past.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 9th 2020 at 2:38:33 PM
Set (thoughts on Ganesh, Vile?)
Oh, and Ganesh
Does the movie starts with him raping a woman or does he had a backstory to this events?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 9th 2020 at 3:19:01 PM
Backstory. All Reapers are the product of rape.
Showtime!
to Ganesh and Set
Is he behind all the raping that was used to create them?
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 9th 2020 at 3:33:14 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
DDD, apparently there's a prequel novel? I'm wondering if that might add to Ganesh's crimes.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Vile: Never stated either way.
@ACW: Based on my research, Ganesh doesn't show up.
to Ganesh and Set.
Ganesh and Set.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Ganesh and Set.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ganesh, Set, The Professor and Otto.
I believe that's everyone.
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
to Brainiac, Lord Nazmukl, the Professor, Otto Von Reinchenbach, Ganesh and Set.
Yes to Ganesh and Set and to get my thoughts out on Claudia... I think this merits some discussion: the tone seems solemn in her words and throughout the chapter just comes across as bitter and lonely. It might be garbage writing but as I've brought up before. Prior to that she says what she seeks "No longer exists in the world", she seems burnt out and totally defeated when she doesn't even have the energy to commit suicide and the last we see of her is the sad look she gives as she's sentenced for her crimes. Any of this stuff alone I might write off but between her cynical motive rant to (hypocritical) lamenting she has no family to ending up so broken she can't even kill herself to just accepting her arrest we've got a one-two-three-four pattern I think we should be talking about. The writing definitely isn't the best and that makes it a little harder to interpret but it's her last scenes and the author is clearly trying to give her character by building sympathy for her and we should be talking about this.
Yeah, I was a bit skeptical of her. Going to lean cut myself, even as poor as the writing is, but yes to Ganesh, the new Tomb-Raider one and the Di-Gata examples.
Edited by PureGrainAlkaSeltzer on Apr 9th 2020 at 2:03:14 PM
I have no idea what I am doing