During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yep, Landon didn't have a motive besides bigotry. Kasady's actions before becoming Carnage are always Off Stage Villany, those actions are to establish he is a bad guy without spending time going into the details of those actions, even before he became Carnage. Though in the comic, there was a brief period where Kasady lost his powers and was still trying to kill people.
Does anyone have any opinions on the rewrite up I gave Vandal Savage from Justice League Doom?
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:31:00 PM by TheOverlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Nice guy. Writeup for Vandal seems okay. What about HERE?
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:27:45 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Carnage and Landon seem like keeps.
For Spiderman Unlimited, I would cut Venom and Carnage. The entry says they aren't in control of their actions. I don't know anything about the other two.
Gonna say ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Mokkan. I don't think he meets the heinous standard for the series.
Cut Stanton Parrish.
Keep Epps.
The Vandal Savage writeup looks pretty good. At the end of the first sentence it should say "genocidal plans for the planet".
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:34:39 PM by TommyFresh
Okay, do you have any suggestions on improving the Vandal Savage write up, it is a first draft, so I don't mind suggestions on improving it.
Also does anyone have objections to that version of Vandal Savage being a CM?
Edit: Thanks Tommy for pointing out that error I made, I just fixed it.
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:37:48 PM by TheOverlord
For Epps, I must ask how much is him and how much is the system? I know we've discarded other slaveholder characters for being, essentially cruel cogs in an even crueler machine.
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:38:38 PM by HamburgerTime
It's Epps completely. We see other slaveholders in the film and they're nowhere near as bad. Not saints themselves, but Epps is a rapist sadist and scumbag.
Keep Landon and Carnage from Spidey '90s. Cut the Unlimited Spiderman examples for venom and Carnage.
Good writeups, Morgenthaler. also, good writeup for Justice League Doom Vandal and mirror Tommy's thoughts on the addition there
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:42:19 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Vandal: "He manages to steal Batman's protocols against the Justice League in order take them out, making them more lethal and sadistic in the process." I don't know what this means. Aren't the JL good guys? Abd it should be in order TO take them out.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Ah, that needs expansion..
Batman left in safeguards to defeat the Justice League if they ever turned bad. Vandal stole the plans and made them lethal.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Like...robots or something? I don't know the series.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The JL are good guys, but Batman is a bit paranoid and devised these protocols to use against any member of the JL who turned evil, should that ever happen. Savage stole the protocols, changed them to make them more lethal and used them against the JL.
No. I mean, Batman had ways to nonlethally subdue members of the justice League if they ever turned bad. Vandal removed the 'nonlethal' part from the plans. Like, instead of Flash being connected to something to knock him out, he'd be connected to something to blow him up. Superman would be shot with a lethal dose of kryptonite instead of nonlethal, etc
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, THAT makes sense. Thanks lighty. Nice guy.
- Speaking of Vandal, Vandal Savage has a writeup more detailed but less aesthetically pleasing than the entry at DC And Vertigo (just has up to "usually both"). Thoughts?
- Finally, for Secret Six, someone who knows the work (lighty?), does Junior's possible Freudian Excuse mitigate her monster-dom?
- Also, for DC And Vertigo, permission to request unspoilering the Transmetropolitan entry?
edited 2nd Nov '13 1:56:19 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Any work on a main page should be unspoiled as much s possible. I only spoil big, big spoilers or things from very recent works.
No, Junior's excuse doesn't mitigate a thing
I rewrote the Vandal Savage entry a bit to explain why Batman designed the protocols.
edited 2nd Nov '13 2:02:20 PM by TheOverlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Thanks. And I'll request the unspoilering. Now, for Hack Slash, I was able to spoiler Akakios's true identity while keeping the gist of the spoilers. As for Vandal, I realize they're two different types, but this talk about Vandal got me thinking about the comic writeup.
Yeah sorry AWC, I realized my mistake and edited my post.
So is the new rewrite of the Justice League Doom Vandal Savage better?
edited 2nd Nov '13 2:08:02 PM by TheOverlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Looks good. Question: So he steals the plans, but does the Justice League then go bad, and if so wouldn't the plans kill them instead of making them sadistic?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No. The JL never goes bad. Vandal stole the plans to stop them and uses them to try to kill them all.
The Justice League doesn't go bad in the movie, Savage just wants to take them out, anyway he can, some of the changed protocols are designed to lethal, some are designed to break their spirits and others are just designed to get them out of the way long enough so he can enact his genocidal plan.
Cleric of Banjo
Pretty much that. I gotta say that Batman is kind of a dick in that the plans are honestly pretty horrible to begin with (like the one to take down the Martain Manhunter, who is afraid of fire, involves setting him on fire and continue to burn for hours/days)
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
To be fair, the film and comic act like Bruce having back up plans to stop the League if they ever lose control is somehow this ultimate betrayal as opposed to a very responsible and necessary thing.
The thing with Martian Manhunter isn't so much about being a dick, it's that J'onn is physically as strong as Superman, has shapeshifting and telepathic powers to boot. Fire's basically the only way to stop him.
edited 2nd Nov '13 2:15:57 PM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, I see. I'd make it "Savage then makes these protocols more lethal and sadistic before using them to try to take out the Justice League." (DOES he actually take them out?)
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Temporarily.
Here are some more examples gathered from YMMV pages.
From 28 Days Later:
- Complete Monster: Mitchell, the vile soldier who gets a kick out of raping women and brutally murdering people as they beg for their lives. It says a lot about him that, in a film filled with violent psychotic murderers, he is by far the worst as he does it entirely of his own choosing. He gets perhaps the most brutal death in the film and he completely deserved it.
I find it hard to single out any of the rapist soldiers over the rest. I get the impression that Mitchell is simply the most noticeable rather than the most heinous. Aside from that they all take part in the same atrocities under Major West's command.
On a side note, the Alternative Character Interpretation entry theorizes whether or not the Major is a Complete Monster. Considering that examples have to be discussed and voted in due to the misuse, doesn't "an arguable Complete Monster depending on interpretation" seem out of place? The Film page lists a Pet the Dog moment for this character, so he disqualifies anyway.
From Dragonheart:
- Complete Monster: Einon. Proving that he is no better than his father, Einon wastes no time becoming The Caligula following his father's death, and enjoys torturing and abusing his own peasants, also treating them like slaves. He kills Kara's father, and then tries to force himself on her (in the book he straight up rapes her and eventually becomes so evil that his own mother acknowledges him as "a creature not worthy of life". This is also right before he murders her
Yeah, Einon is a likely keep. He's a spoiled lunatic of a medieval fantasy king who isn't above such things as killing his own mother and trying to rape the woman whose father he murdered, and he never gets any redeeming traits.
From Hard Rain:
- Complete Monster: The sheriff. His Moral Event Horizon moment is the "They're witnesses" line, and when he's reminded that if the dam collapses it will obliterate the entire town, his automatic reply is "Screw the town." Wayne also qualifies, as far as we know; the only things we ever see him do are crudely mock his colleagues, lock Tom in and leave him to die, readily agree to murder people for money, and chain Karen up and attempt to rape her before leaving her to drown (although the last one doesn't go how he planned it...)
Two candidates. I'm not sure. The sherrif goes on about how he's been treated like crap for years before he decides to say "screw it" and steal the money. He goes way overboard in deciding to kill all witnesses, the robbers, and the money carrier (Tom) to get away with the loot. Moral Event Horizon crossing definately, but CM? The other one doesn't even have the sherrif's excuse, I think.
From Star Trek: First Contact:
- Complete Monster: The Borg Queen (especially when you take her Voyager appearances into account).
This discussion has actually already played out, with a majority deeming her a cut due to redeeming motives.
From Superman Returns:
- Complete Monster: Lex Luthor goes from the scene-stealing madman Gene Hackman played to a seriously depraved sociopath with no qualms about hurting anyone around him and who couldn't be more indifferent to the billions his plans will kill. Surprising for a film so devoted to emotion and nostalgia.
- Eh...In the first movie, he isn't much different. His plan in that film wouldn't have caused billions of deaths, but it would have caused the deaths of tens, if not hundreds of millions, for much the same reason- fun and real estate profit. Its the first film where Lex admits he gets his jollies from "causing the deaths of innocent people". The tone of the film (and The Other Darrin) is the only thing that makes them seem like marginally different characters.
Thread mode aside, this film is at least officially supposed to be in continuity with the two Donner films (which I'm not personally familiar with). What is Gene Hackman's portrayal like?
From The Usual Suspects:
- Complete Monster: Keyser Söze, according to Verbal, and Dean Keaton, according to Kujan. Whether you choose to believe either of them is up to you.
Due to this film's notorious use of Unreliable Narrator and The Ending Changes Everything, the plot is much too ambiguous to establish almost any character's heinousness. All we know of the real Keyser Söze is that he was somehow involved in a shootout with a rival gang on a boat and that he's a master manipulator. Dean Keaton's crimes are all offscreen and based on the inferences of one character. Onscreen in Verbal's version of the events he has redeeming traits. I don't think there's enough to establish any character as a CM.
edited 2nd Nov '13 2:19:31 PM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
Carnage seems like a qualifier (sidenote: Are both his pre-Carnage crimes and Comic! Kasady's shown, or just Offscreen Villainy?![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
either way). Landon: Seems like a qualifier; what's his motivation? Just bigotry?
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