During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Okay, now I decided to delve in to Prince of Persia franchise and here is my first EP, based on it
What's the work?
Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands is the last game from the franchise, that was released in 2013 (after this, franchise was put "on hold") by Ubisoft and ported on several platforms, each having it's own story. PC, PS3 and XBOX 360 edition set in "The Sands of Time" universe, the story follows the Prince after the events of Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time game from 2003 (with some Continuity Snarls, like a brother, who was never mentioned before, the events of the game was strangely never mentioned in Warrior Within and The Two Thrones and Prince never mentioned the events of The Sands of Time himself here and strange absence of Dahaka, who was supposed to chase Prince after he disrupted the timeline in The Sands of Time), the story follows the Prince, as he sended by his father to his brother's (Malik) kingdom to study and he arrives in the moment, when the enemies of his brother decided to invade his kingdom. As Prince follows Malik, he discovers that his brother plans to free the ancient army of King Solomon to help him win the battle, but things go wrong as the army gets free and prince tries to set things right.
My candidate is the creator said army - evil Djinn Ratash.
Who is Ratash?
A leader of Ifrit, one of the four tribes of the Djinn, Ratash grow angry with the Djinn alliance with King Solomon and decided to rebel against it. Creating his Sand army by combining his powers with the Sand and Wind from the desert, Ratash started a war with both Djinn and humans, massacring most Djinn (reducing their numbers to very few) and countless humans, until he and his army were sealed away by the powerful spell. This resulted in a small numbers of Djinn that survived, to break their ties with humanity, leaving their great city to stay away from the place, where Ratash and his army were sealed, only Razia (a Marid Djinn) stayed, and the city became a ruins.
In present day, Ratash and his army were freed by Malik (who ruled Solomon's kingdom during that time), in hopes that they will help him to fend off the invaders, but the army instead started massacring both invaders and his people alike (as well as the prisoners, who was left), turning hundreds of them in to sand statues (process that is shown to be painful and terrifying to humans) and Ratash just resume destroying the kingdom, chasing Prince and desiring to continue his rampage all across the world (as Razia puts it, "cover the world" with his Sand Army), as soon as he becomes powerful enough and finished with King Solomon's kingdom. When Prince weakened him and Malik delivered a finishing blow, Ratash used this to possess Malik's body (as his protecting talisman was broken) and then started killing his own army to gain power and transform in to larger version of himself and cause a giant sandstorm to further power himself up. As Razia and Prince managed to find the magic sword, that could kill him and track him down (with Razia putting her essence inside this sword), they fight him, as Ratash speaks in Djinn language with Razia, with Razia angrily shouting back. When Prince asks what Ratash saying, Razia said "Insults. Lies." They managed to kill Ratash in the end, freeing his brother (who died there in Prince arms) and people, who was turned in to statues, transform back in to humans.
Heinousness?
Was responsible for the war, which taken the lives of countless humans and most of the Djinn, reducing Djinn to very small number, causing them to abandon humans and leave their city. In present he petrifies hundreds, planning to spread his rampage all across the world. Him turning people in to sand statues treated with horror and humans themselves scream from horror as they turn with all the implication going that they stay in "And I Must Scream" situation.
Mitigating Qualities?
Ratash managed to show off a personality, while speaking in Djinn language, insulting Razia during final battle and angrily speaking (09:36 mark) with the Prince as he was chasing him. Plus, the trailer give us a bit of dialogue from him in English:
"For ages I've been trapped here, counting hours like the Sands of Time. I've waited patiently, knowing destiny would set me free. I am stronger than a sandstorm, more powerful than you can possibly imagine. What man could stop me?"
His war with Djinn and humans are not entirely Off Screen, as we travel through ruins of Djinn's capital (which became as it was because of him) and there are some
◊ tablets
◊ shown, which depict the war itself, as well as Razia telling
◊ the whole story.
Conclusion?
I will say Yes.
I thought sharks were my friends.
Never really cared for Prince of Persia, but ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Cut Jenkins and...
Weak "Yes" to Ratash. I played the game but didn't bother to propose him since I found him quiete unmemorable compared to the Vizier and also because my attempt to propose the similarly bland Ahriman from the 2008 game was a utter flop...
Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 25th 2019 at 10:09:19 AM
to Ratash
Hi all, got another candidate. Grace Gibbons / Cicada II from The Flash
Who is Grace Gibbons? In the Season 5 of the Flash, the main antagonist was originally Orlin Dwyer, who is the first Cicada and the uncle to Grace Gibbons. However halfway through the season just when Orlin was about to pull a Heel–Face Turn, a future version of Grace time travels back as the new Cicada and takes his place as the new Big Bad. Both Cicadas are Knight Templar Serial Killers who wish to kill all metahumans, only Grace is much much worse, lacking her uncle's moral conscience and restraint, killing all who stand in her way innocent or guilty or otherwise. Also unlike her uncle she is far more powerful, being an Invincible Villain who pretty much stomps Team Flash in every encounter. The only way they managed to put a stop to her was to Ret-Gone her out of existence.
Crimes? As mentioned above, Grace Gibbons is a notorious Serial Killer and has been stated to have the highest bodycount in the entire Arrowverse (totaling 152 people at that point in time) with the comparison to two other serial killers being "Cicada killed more people than Zoom or even the Red Death". While she presents herself as following in the footsteps of her uncle's crusade against metas, unlike him she is a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist and more a fanatic racist who cannot be reasoned with.
As proof of how irredeemable she is, not even her own uncle, the one who played a part in her creation was able to sway her. After Orlin pulls a Heel–Face Turn and attempts to talk her out of her crusade, she rejects his suggestion and kills him, stating she preferred to stay a killer herself.
Heinousness: Yes yes. Arrowverse heiousness standards are staggeringly high, but I feel Grace has earned a place among the absolute scum, continually pushing away all chances to show redeeming qualities and reveal how nasty she is underneath.
Mitigating Factors: Her Freudian Excuse is getting revenge on metas for killing her parents, except it goes way past being a Well-Intentioned Extremist like her uncle and into Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist territory given that at the end of the day she just wants to be a killer and is using her crusade as an excuse for her acts of racism against metas. Proof lies in choosing to kill your own morality pet than to give up being a killer.
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 25th 2019 at 1:49:42 AM
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I'm gonna wait for whoever E Ped Jenkins to talk on that.
One thing I will note is that, the reason his FE was decided not to hold up wasn't just because of the extremes of his goals, but that virtually all the main Charachters had simmilar issues and none of them became the evil bastard Jenkins did(Sans Vanya but she took A lot of pushing)
to Ratash
I thought sharks were my friends.
Abstaining on Grace until further input.
RIP KissAnime.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sir Hargreeves was a terrible parent, no doubt about it, but he was more neglectful and distant towards his children. He wasn't beating their faces in every time they looked at him funny. The Academy children also had the advantage of Grace being a doting mother towards all of them, while Jenkins' mother died in childbirth. I just don't think even that argument holds up. People respond differently to different circumstances.
Ratash and Cicada
As for Harold? Calling ~therealjackieboy
Before I decide on anything on Grace, does anybody has further input on her?
Well, what would else would you like to know to help in making a decision?
Well, I swore she was discussed before, so I want to be sure that nobody has any counter opinions before I vote.
Forneperser brought Grace a while back.
"Both Cicadas are 100% clear no-nos. Both act out of grief for a loved one. Way overboard, sure, but that doesn`t change that they have redeeming qualities. And no, Grace killing her Uncle doesn't mean that she shed her love for him."
I havent watched season 5 so I cant comment on this.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Aug 25th 2019 at 11:53:11 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
With that, I'll give Grace a tentative ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, but open to change depending on further arguments.
Latest candidates
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Sure to Ratash. Abstain but leaning no on Grace following Forenperser's arguments
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Cautious no to Ratash for now.
I may go back eventually but I really did see him as being too generic.
I'd argue that she rejected her loved one as she put being a killer above that. Even the motivation isn't about "killing metas will make the world a better place" and more "I hate metas and all of them must die"
I left the links to parts of walkthrough of the game in the EP. If you want you can check them out, if you unsure.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Shall we create a Fear Street page now? Especially as there will likely be more candidates?
Edited by ACW on Aug 25th 2019 at 7:15:21 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Since there's no indication that she hated her parents, I'm going to say no to Grace Gibbons/Cicada II, unless her Freudian Excuse affected her like Isaac Ray Peram Wescott...
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Gentle Laborer
If all candidates are from the same universe and there are at least 7 or 8 of them, then yeah.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
is being in the same universe a rule though? I assumed it was just "Part of the same Franchise"
Edited by Kylotrope on Aug 25th 2019 at 4:54:11 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Having just finished the series, I noticed that Harold Jenkins from The Umbrella Academy (2019) was put up with virtually no discussion.
I'm almost 100% positive nowhere is it said that he was intentionally trying to destroy the world. He wants revenge on the Umbrella Academy and Sir Reginald Hargreeves specifically for not taking him in, but that's it. It's Vanya who decides to destroy the world after she kills him and becomes a supervillain in her own right as the White Violin. Would he be glad that she leveled the academy and tried to kill her siblings? Definitely. Laying waste to the entire planet? Eh...
With his goal not being as extreme as described in the effortpost, I'm also not convinced that his Freudian Excuse (which is presented very tragically and horrifically) doesn't cut it.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Aug 25th 2019 at 12:20:03 PM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"