During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
A yes to Morakeb, indeed. Also, sure to Shuriki.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Aug 5th 2019 at 5:59:54 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Strong concerns about Shuriki. I do not see this played as anything but generic villainy. I think calling it 'meditated genocide' is a bit much. I'm going with a sharp no unless someone else can verify. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I've seen a lot of generic bad guy stuff elevated too much in ways the original work did not present it as.
Also, one I've had on the consideration list for a bit...I'll save the other basic Peplum guy for later (not a Maciste film, that one)
What's the work?
Claymore is a manga by Norihiro Yagi sent in a fantasy land overrun with man-eating monsters called the Yoma who can take the forms of human beings....Yoma wander the land, taking the form of others and devouring them, with humans rarely a match. Thankfully, an organization exists that trains mysterious women, implanting Yoma flesh into them to make super soldiers that are sent to hunt the Yoma down...they're known colloquially as 'Claymores' after their giant swords, distinguished by their odd silver eyes. Each Claymore is ranked by their level of power, 1-47, but...there's a darker side to them.
Claymores can lose themselves to their Yoma side if they release too much power. If they feel themselves slip too far, they're to send a 'black card' they carry to another Claymore to cut them down while thye're still human, because otherwise they become an Awakened Being, a far more powerful and dangerous Yoma...our heroine is Clare, a girl who was kept as an abused toy by a Yoma and saved by the strongest Claymore in history, Teresa...but then Teresa broke the cardinal rule of killing a human being to save Clare....the Organization had Teresa hunted down, but a powerful warrior Awakened at the wrong time, killed Teresa and fled, with a heartbroken Clare becoming a Claymore willingly to one day avenge Teresa.
It may be cluing in by now that the Organization are not good guys...to that end, let's talk their leader, Rimuto.
Who is Rimuto?
The head of the 'Men in Black' as they're known, Rimuto in truth hails from far across the ocean from a land locked in eternal war between the side the Organization hails from and another race ruled by those called 'The Dragon's Kin.' Yoma were created, or more specifically Awakened Beings, to combat them...and the main land is their laboratory. Rimuto is the one in charge of the project and has been for about a hundred years or more.
The Organization has zero care for civilians....they created and unleash the Yoma, Rimuto counting on the cycle: the Yoma kill tons of people, creating all the orphans thye need to take and make into new Claymores. Villages are extorted, massively, for funds to deal with Yoma...the Claymores? As Rimuto puts it, the best are those with 'limited lifespans.' They'll either die in battle, be cut down by their own comrades or become monsters that require more money to destroy, with thousands of girls subject to this, many not even surviving the training process. Also, every so often a village can't pay the steep fee once the extermination is complete. No problem at all.
Rimuto simply has those villages exterminated by Yoma as a little reminder to everyone else not to get cute about things. Also, the hunts? Are rarely random...it's not uncommon for the Organization to put 'troublesome' warriors against opponents far beyond their capabilities. When the series opens, Clare experiences a sort of 'half awakening' that increases her powers, and finds herself on an Awakened Being hunt with a group of others, including a Single Digit warrior (the elites of the Claymores)....turns out, they're being thrown against a Male Awakened Being (the first generation were all males, but that went poorly as males can't resist awakening)
The experiments that we see are also abominable. Now, three times in history, a Number 1 has awakened and the results were devastating: the three, The Creatures of the Abyss, Isley (the first ever number 1), Riful and Luciela have staked out territories, and Rimuto wants them gone...which, y'know, is reasonable enough...the first however? Isley has allied with Clare's enemy, Priscilla and seeks an expansion of his territory...Rimuto? Has a great campaign begun against Isley's army, but he purposefully uses them as sheilds to buy time, sending in warriors who are 'troublesome', to die as a result, with most perishing...all while he prepares their real weapon. The Organization had abducted two young twins and raised them as brainwashed weapons, with one being a controlled Awakened Being, guided by her twin sister, their senses of self utterly erased. It works.
To eliminate Isley, Rimuto and the Org also take other women and implant Awakened Being flesh into them to turn them into horrific monsters called Abyssal Feeders, sending them after Isley to slowly wear him down over the years, causing loads of collateral damage along the way. ...after things go way wrong with a lot of factions colliding. After the failed Northern Campaign, there were only seven survivors, led by the former Number 6, 'Phantom' Miria...who decides to finish things with the Organization on her on and invades, only to be seemingly defeated thanks to a special weapon, Number 10...Rimuto licenses the Org's top mad scientist to start new experiments with the corpses of the old Number 1s...
turns out Miria survives and leads the Claymores in rebellion. Rimuto orders them dispatched post haste with the revived Number 1 warriors, but things eventually give way...the Claymores overrun the Organization and rescue the current trainees. Realizing he'll die painfully for his failures, Rimuto opts not to flee, greeting Miria as she arrives.
After a short conversation, Miria states she'll be the only one to stain her hands with human blood (killing humans is the taboo to Claymores) and beheads Rimuto, presenting his head to the warriors as their sign of victory over the Organization.
Heinousness?
Basically the guy responsible for everything. Rimuto is the leader of the Org. and responsible for everything there. He's got total autonomy over the place and everything in the series traces back to him. While he's not very hands on, we see the results of his decisions: everyone the Yoma kill, every Awakened Being, every massacre, every Claymore who dies tragically (and before the series starts this is literally all of them) is on him. Having orphans abducted and turned into Yoma/Awakened Beings/Claymores? On him.
Pretty much defines the heinous standard even compared to Priscilla (who has a ginormous body count), Riful (a brutal torturer and conqueror in her own right) and Isley (even worse on the conquering thing)
As a sidenote, Priscilla is a mentally damaged kid with a horrific backstory, who gets a final Alas, Poor Villain, Riful loves her boyfriend and fellow Awakened Being Dauf (refusing to leave him behind even when her own life is in danger at the time) and Isley truly cares for Priscilla and their adopted little brother Raki as his own family, as vicious as they all are. The only other keeper is the Serial Killer Roxanne of Love And Hate.
Mitigating Qualities?
Rimuto is ice cold...no care for anyone or anything around him. He seems to view everything with a detached curiosity, rarely emoting, save when he smirks a bit to say warriors who 'die quickly' are the best type. He never expresses any true patriotism, loyalty to those about him or....anything. He's just a frozen shell of what a human being should be.
Conclusion?
I'd pass him.
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 5th 2019 at 9:09:35 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Rimuto
Yes to Rimuto.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Is it clear that people will suffer and die as a result of her actions?
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 5th 2019 at 9:13:54 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Rimuto
Like I said, Shuriki's actions are treated in a pretty grim light.
@falcontalons Yes. The queen and king of Avalor are dead (first sentence in fact) and its a massive plot point with Elena's trauma over it cropping up frequently after she becomes aware Shuriki is alive, while the noblins were miserable and its heavily suggested that the gold they made was used to bribe Cristóbal (who is a minor Knight of Cerebus himself, in the sense that his villain reveal makes him an incredibly vile character and the special much darker than it should be)
Edited by Keshali on Aug 5th 2019 at 9:28:08 AM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Rimuto.
Even without the possible Fridge Horror genocide part, her multiple attempted child murders, enslavement of people and sadism should make Shuriki go up. If she's treated as seriously as the EP states, that should help.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Rimuto.
I also have doubts about Shuriki, even if she's played more seriously I still have trouble believing that it isn't played as more standard villainy. The show is for kids under the age of 8. And yes I know we've had qualifiers from children's media before, but it's still relatively rare to see outright attempted genocide in stuff aimed at kids that young. So I'm skeptical.
Depends on what you call "standard villainy", but there is a stark difference to how she is portrayed and virtually every other villain in Elena of Avalor.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Rimuto.
Abstain on Shuriki though leaning no for reasons others have pointed out. She sounds pretty standard in terms of villainy.
Edited by Bullman on Aug 5th 2019 at 11:30:21 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
to Rimuto and Morakeb. Abstain on Shuriki pending further discussion
Already addressed the points though.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Morakeb.
Rimuto. I read the EP, and can't quite figure out what he's after. Just power?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Power and wealth. Once her wand is broken she tries to regain magical power, once she regains magical power she wants to kill the royal family.
Edited by Keshali on Aug 5th 2019 at 9:39:19 AM
Rimuto is basically developing perfect soldiers for the war effort. Though he seems more interested in the science of it from what we see.
Keshali: I understand you think you’ve addressed others’ points but please know sometimes others will disagree with you, especially when we deal with works for younger kids.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, For Science!. Simple enough.
@Keshali: From what you're saying, the slavery sounds like generic villainy: the noblins are just "miserable" and not being abused. "Plunging the world into darkness" is pretty vague, and even if she's a Knight of Cerebus, that doesn't mean her actions are treated with the gravity they should be.
Edited by falcontalons on Aug 5th 2019 at 9:54:32 AM
Wild Child
Rimuto.
@lightysnake: I'm fine with disagreeing (i.e. letting my previous E Ps go), but having to repeat myself is frustrating and two people seem to not have read what I typed.
@falcontalons: Noblins, not nobles. They are shown to be live behind bars and be forced to continuously make gold without interuption.
Yeah...I don’t think that goes over generic kids’ villainy.
What about the other things, like the successful and attempted murders and the trauma they caused?
I mean that’s bad but I don’t think it rises to the level we need here.
Take, say, Ursula or Hades Vs. Frollo. On paper Ursula sounds deplorable, and you could say Hades tries to kill a baby and wipe out a city. But in practice it doesn’t come off as atrocious as it could.
Frollo on the other hand? The themes of prejudice, damnation, are played far more maturely to the extent his attempted genocide of the Gypsies, his murders, etc. are more easy to take at total face value.
Shuriki's is a personal object of hatred and trauma, so she fits into the latter category. Contrasted with villains that do bad things but seem less consequential.
Leaning no for Shuriki; I doubt the enslavement is played as seriously as it should be, and most of what is described in the EP sounds like generic villainy.