Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Abstaining on Hartman

Also, I have a Fanfic rec.

What is the work?

The RWBY Fanfiction series, The Makings of Team CRME. Specifically, much of her appearance in CRME.

Who is she?

Cinder Fall, reprising her role as the main villain, now as a Villain Protagonist.

What did she do?

Cinder starts her career as The Sociopath she is in canon by killing her sister and claiming that it was a Mercy Kill because she was about to burn her abusive mother, Brigit, alive. Later on, when picked up by a Bandit Clan, she ends up killing a woman who provided for her when she was living on her own. She turned on her when she thought she was a hypocrite. But once Salem found her, she only started to enable her villainous tendencies. Cinder soon became obsessed with becoming powerful to get back at the world for the injustices committed against her, both real and perceived (with more being perceived). By the end of My Name Is Cinder, she admits to Salem that she'd be willing to kill innocent people just to get the power she wants.

When she finds Emerald in CRME, she manipulates her into becoming devoted to and dependent on her and viewing her as nothing but a useful tool. It is even stated that feeling sympathy for her situation is an alien concept to her. Later, when Cinder brings Mercury onto her team, his mother wants to take him back home. And while Melanie does threaten to kill him when he refuses, she doesn't express much desire to cause any significant harm to her other than slapping her. Something that causes Cinder to brutally strangle her in a broom closet. Not because she had moral issues with Melanie; just because she reminded her of her own abusive mother and was standing in the way of her goal to obtain Mercury as an apprentice. She and Mercury even relish in the fact that she suffered.

When he is taken home, Emerald starts feeling justifiably neglected when she pays more attention to him, resulting in Cinder physically abusing Emerald and later threatening to put her out on the street again if she doesn't stay in line. Something that Mercury has a problem with. And when Mercury tries to bring this to Emerald's attention (partially because she thinks she's a hypocrite for denouncing her mother and partially to drive them apart as a way to mess with Emerald), Cinder starts threatening to hurt Mercury after previously thinking of him as a favorite employee. She easily turns on him when he goes against her best interest. And the final retaliation to put him in line is to have Emerald Mind Rape him by making him see several illusions of his Abusive Parents to overwhelm him. Something that she looks on at with a Psychotic Smirk.

Later on, she sees no problem with threatening to kill people for petty reasons. For example, when she mentions the name of one of Roman's former employees and he says he doesn't care about him, she goes back just to jam an arrow into his neck to kill him. Not just any arrow. One similar to the one she used to kill Pyrrha! All for no reason other than the fact that he annoyed her. And when she sees that Roman's Dust robberies are not getting Ozpin's attention, she throws a tantrum about the fact that he doesn't care if no one is dying. A news report informs her of the White Fang and she contemplates hiring them because possible casualties will make Ozpin notice. She completely disregards innocent lives as a distraction for Ozipin. When Emerald expresses concern about how far she's going, she reaffirms that she's willing to go as far as it takes by shouting at her and then calmly threatening to throw her back out onto the street.

When they finally get to attacking Amber, the narration shows in more detail how much enjoyment she was getting out of taking the Fall Maiden powers. When she goes back to Adam Taurus after a failed attempt at diplomacy, she also enjoys slaughtering Adam's faction before threatening him to join. And any criticism is often met with either threats or acts of violence. Watts nearly gets burned up by Cinder just for insulting her. To show just how she thinks, when Lionheart describes why he turned on Ozpin and notes Salem's viciousness, she admires the fear that Salem inspires and hopes to achieve it.

Mitigating Factors?

The series does giver her a Freudian Excuse in the form of her abusive mother, but that starts to become a shallow defense once her egomania starts ballooning out of control. Even before then, it's flimsy at best. She claims that stabbing her sister was a Mercy Kill because she didn't want her to live without a mother or burn alive with Brigit. However, she feels calm when she does it and doesn't even feel guilty about it later. And she rarely ever brings up her family unless it's about how horrible Brigit was to her. Never about her father and brother, who their deaths are one reason Cinder sees Brigit as a monster. As Mercury implies in Chapter 16, she never seems emotionally invested in them. They may be mitigating factors, but they don't mitigate by much – if at all.

While she does express some fondness for Emerald and Mercury, it's all because they are her devoted followers and not any true attachment. They are seen by her as testaments of her greatness. Even when she finds out that Emerald slept with Mercury, she doesn't chastise her only because Emerald's heart still belongs to her. While seeming to be understanding, it reinforces the idea that Cinder views her more as a possession and not a person. She is asexual so she doesn't personally care about sex. And she also hides the fact that she slept with Roman to make him more inclined to keep working with the White Fang. It's something that she doesn't care that much about. So, the most you could say is that she was trying to not alienate Emerald, keeping her devoted.

Heinous Standard?

The series is a prequel, so the standard has not yet been set in canon, but there are two other CM's in the series, Brigit Stark and Marcus Black. She absolutely raises the bar for the fic series. Of all the villains depicted in this story, she is absolutely the worst of the worst.

Final Verdict?

I'd say she has earned a spot without question. But it's ultimately not up to me alone. What do you guys think?

@Scraggle Now that you mention it... yeah, they're a similar case to Lamarr. The Wilsons are godawful human beings who mutilate their victims, gun down two random people and two cops, kidnap a woman, and try to rape Reacher's partner, but that's actually hella standard for a Jack Reacher book. The only argument I could make in their favor is that, unlike other villains who have a lot more money, power, or resources, the Wilsons are just two regular cops who go on a two-man murder spree. I wouldn't lose any sleep if they were cut as well.

EDIT: The whole resources argument is kind of nullified, however, when we compare the Wilsons to the American, who's just a low-level but cunning thief who still manages to have the highest attempted body count in the series

Also, a for Cinder.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:31:51 PM by JoeBlitz

Well, I'll throw in support for cutting the Wilsons too.

Seriously. What Lane tries to do there is one of the most sickening crimes I've ever seen pass through here.

Yea to fic!Cinder, by the way.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:11:11 PM by Scraggle

Surprising nobody, yes to Cinder.

Julia Lamarr.

One thing about fic cinder gives me pause. The thing that makes her lash out is when Mel says “if mercury were smart he’d join his father.” Cinder immediately flashes back to when her own cunt of a mother gloated about how she drove her husband to suicide and said “you’d join him if you were smart”. That implies some genuine disgust with Melanie and it’s clear that she never really got over her own abuse

The thing about that is even though she might still be affected by her mother the idea that she is handling it in the most heinous way possible doesn't justify a thing she does.

edited 30th Apr '18 7:33:36 PM by Knack

My rewatch of the show came to an end with Season 4's "Bloodline" which I had missed on my first viewing. If you aren't familiar with that episode, it's the Nazi propaganda episode where the villains are evil child snatching "Gypsies" who grab kids because that's totally what Romani culture is all about.

I decided I might have better things to do with my time than watching this.

In the episode they do state that they’re following a bastardized version of Roma culture but it is still sleazy

I don't think anybody should even go there, it's not a topic that will end well.

True. The child stealing thing is complete bullshit (there have been extremely rare cases but again that’s one in a trillion)

So the episode was still stupid

Criminal Minds has been kinda going downhill since season four honestly, they cemented this when they fired the actor who portrayed Hotch, aka the main protagonist in twelve seasons. I'm almost certain it will be cancelled this year or the next.

I think what Knack means is let's just avoid this conversation altogether. He's right, it can't end well, and it really doesn't need to come up on this thread.

edited 30th Apr '18 7:57:09 PM by JoeBlitz

I mean Thomas Gibson literally beat the tar out of somebody on set. Pretty good reason to fire somebody.

He allegedly kicked one of the writers, but still, he was the main character since 2005, they knew firing him would basically be a death sentence.

True, comrade. Speaking of which, Cinder and Julia.

edited 30th Apr '18 8:13:01 PM by TheMadCr0w

I don't want to sound rude but this thread just got sidetracked all of a sudden and I think it would be best if people voted on the last EP and not talk about the problems criminal minds has.

Yea on fic!Cinder and cut Julia

I'll go for cutting Julia as well.

Also, thanks for getting things back on track, Knack.

Yea on fic!Cinder. Of course. Ugh the heinousness level rises.

Apologies. Someone else had the show I was EP-ing reserved, so this entry has been deleted.

edited 30th Apr '18 8:51:37 PM by Riley1sCool

I thought Lighty had that show reserved?

He does. And from what he's said, that show doesn't even have anyone remotely approaching the trope yet.

edited 30th Apr '18 8:49:50 PM by Scraggle

Oh? I must have missed that. Apologies. I'll repair this immediately.

Yeah I remember that Lighty said nobody counts.

edited 30th Apr '18 8:50:49 PM by Knack