During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Shere Khan was rejected last time for failing the general heinous standard not because he was being compared to previous versions. And I'm still inclined to agree, nothing Khan does really rises above standard villainy. So I'm still voting ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Shere Khan.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And I just put this at the YMMV page of Infinity War:
- Please do not list any Complete Monster entries here until they have been approved by the thread. Lightysnake will start discussion on May 11. Discussing any candidates beforehand, or putting ANYTHING here without approval, will result in a holler to the mods.
It's not that anyone had discussed it; I just like to do that preemptively for such big works.
edited 13th Apr '18 4:31:26 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wild Child
As the one who originally proposed 2016!Shere Khan, my vote is 'No'.
Khan may be the Big Bad and set the heinous standard for the film, he doesn't quite cross the baseline. He has two onscreen murders and several attempted ones; horrid, but he doesn't QUITE reach it. After his murder of Akela, he doesn't really do anything except wait for Mowgli to return. If he'd started actively killing other animals while in control of the wolves, then he probably would have been heinous enough.
Also, I notice the section talking about the Heinous Standard more goes into detail about how seriously he was portrayed and discussing mitigating factors. Those were not issues in the original discussion; no one was disputing that he was taken seriously. And I only compared him to the original version to talk about how he's worse than the animated incarnation.
edited 13th Apr '18 4:34:46 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Messenger from another dimension.
Looked at the previous EP which was pretty good actually. Since Shere was rejected then, it's doubtful he should be counted now. Switching to nay.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Yeah, sorry to Shere but he isnt bad enough . He is a tiger, he should have a biggest bodycount (or a plan to get a massive one) to count
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
My bad, I confused his name
edited 13th Apr '18 4:36:05 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
Who is Shao?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I think he meant Shere, as SHAO already counts.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Easy no to Kahn, the fact this work is a seperate universe is irrelevant, as others have pointed out, he doesn’t meet the baseline.
edited 13th Apr '18 4:56:16 PM by 43110
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
I think I'll abstain on Shere Khan
And right.....Since it's 14th on my country....... I think it's time for me and Lighty to discuss Killing Bites.......The answer is:
Since the anime only covered the first half of the manga........No one counts. I repeat, No one counts at all. Here's the thing. The most heinous guy of the bunch, Reiichi Shidoh almost reminds me of Kazushi Nikken and Lucius combined together and he doesn't count due to his care for Hitomi, heck in the past he seems to try at his best to save Hitomi from harm. And I would love to propose that goddamn rapist Cobra, But I'll try to trust Lighty's judgement about him not counting even if he has an attempted rape with his.............Errrrr.........Cobra Cannons. And most of the guys are pretty bad but still, there are either having a bit of redeeming qualities or not heinous enough. But for the second half of the manga (Which I haven't read it actually).............Oh boy, this will be different. I spoke Lighty in P Ms regarding it and he said the next brutes will become much brutal and the Brute Hyena takes the cake for being the worst offender. Would love to propose her but I haven't read the manga yet. Now I'll let Lighty cover his POV regarding Killing Bites in general.
edited 13th Apr '18 4:44:30 PM by ElfenLiedFan90
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Ok to sum up Shere Khan:
- He killed Mowgli’s father
- He killed Mowgli’s adoptive wolf father
- He tries to kill the hero (which is not even a blip on the heinousness radar)
- He makes a verbal threat to kill anyone who won’t work with him
- He shows that he’s willing to kill a pup, but doesn’t kill it, to mess with Mowgli’s adoptive wolf mother.
Going by my gut feeling I’ve to say that’s not enough to be a CM. So for Shere Khan. Still a good EP, though.
edited 13th Apr '18 4:45:41 PM by NTG
I think I'll Share Kahn, it that like Smaug, he other than commit a couple Moral Event Horizon acts, just sits on his ass when he has the resources to do much more.
Cut Jack
edited 13th Apr '18 5:09:06 PM by G-Editor
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
God. Damn it. Rant incoming, BTW. 
-sighs- So I'm done with Three Years In Hell.
We're cutting Jack.
So here's how the story goes. Part 1 is about how Elisa, the protagonist, was sold into a human trafficking ring at a young age. And then she was bought by Jack, abused, and forced to sleep in a shabby room. Part 2 is about how Elisa is frequently abused some more, becomes Jack's maid, and has to get rid of a dead body. It ends with her getting raped (although nothing is explicit). Part 3 is about how Elisa was raped by Jack for months, and abused, and impregnated. And then there's a part where Elisa gets an abortion. In full detail. And then Jack goes and takes a photo of Elisa while she's bleeding, and of the baby fetus.
It is at this point where I stopped reading this story so I could spend half an hour ranting in my brain.
In Part 4, Jack rapes and abused Elisa again (shocker), and then takes away her fetus. Towards the end, Jack tells Elisa to kill Tammy by taking out the knife in her chest and finishing her off. Elisa kills Jack with the knife (shocker). Then she gets one of those Earn Your Happy Ending endings. Whoo and yay.
That's all this story is. You read about how a pre-teen / teenage girl was horrifically abused. That's. About. It.
I don't......I don't like being this critical of indie works, especially when it's free. But goddamn it. I don't see the point in this story. What's the purpose? To show off how evil Jack is? Okay good, great. ....And? Look, you can make a horror and/or thriller with an awful, awful villain in it and have some purpose behind it besides "evil baddies does evil things to protagonist."
Hush is an excellent thriller with a CM in it, who constantly torments the protagonist and wants to rape/kill her. But the movie isn't about the killer constantly stabbing people. It's about a deaf woman struggling to survive, and eventually overpowering said killer.
IT (the remake movie anyway) is a great horror movie with a CM in it, who constantly torments children. But the movie isn't about that. It's about all these children learning to grow up, learning to work together against a common foe, and learning to overcome their fears.
Cube is an excellent character study/thriller with a CM in it, who loses his mind and torments the other characters. But the movie isn't about him going crazy and killing everyone. It's about these characters trying to survive, and one of them gives in to his secret, hidden, sadistic, angry actions and ends up becoming the biggest threat in the whole film.
Even the original Saw movie (which does not have a CM) wasn't about a whole bunch of deadly traps and gore. It was about people who don't value their lives facing death in the face and proving whether or not they deserve to live by going through physical hell. It was about two men slowly losing their minds as they try to escape from the traps they're in, while also discovering who they are about each other.
Three Years In Hell does not do any of these things. It isn't until halfway into Part 4 where Elisa even considers trying to fight back. Up until that point, it's just her dealing with all these tragedies. I'm not saying you can't throw an over-the-top villain in a story and that immediately turns your story into grimdark shlock. Hell, you can even have a Villain Protagonist like Louis Bloom and still have him/her be a CM if there's some kind of purpose behind it.
But if your story is nothing but several scenes showing off a villain doing awful things because EVUL, without any form of Character Development, without any purpose or reasoning, or without much of a plot at all, it's really hard to feel anything but apathy, and your story in question seems more like a checklist of misdeeds your villain performed.
Anyway. Sorry 'bout the rant. But we're trimming Jack.
edited 13th Apr '18 4:59:26 PM by Tyk5919
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to trimming Jack.
Agreed 100% on cutting Jack.
Hurt, Moriarty, and another Kahn.
Leaning to cutting Jack. Really I'm unsure of NoSleep in genral (with exception of David King) due to it not exactly being in my reading circles. Namely the Creepypasta's I do prefer reading I look up to make sure they are actual stories (Like Borrasca and Hyraaq Tobit and from what little I here of No Sleep mostly falls into the schlock category.
From what I heard and seen the Creepypasta wiki is trimming itself of schlock as well. Of course some of them just get moved to another site or in at least one case given a remake (with a series of sequels).
edited 13th Apr '18 5:09:25 PM by Beast
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
How was this guy already up if his arc wasn't complete? What is this work, anyway? It has "parts"...?
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
r/No Sleep is funny, I am a habitual reader of it, I unironically enjoy the shock and the long titles (which makes sense in the context). I was gonna propose a Mad Scientist from the a Horror story about the Japanese Army in WW 2 that involve rituals, but he had a sympathetic moment before dying.
Most creepypastas are pure shock stories, some are better than others and others avoid being all about shock. I still like them.
About Jack, yeah, cut him. I dont like being a arbiter of stories, but this one just look like a LOOONG list of Torture Porn.
I feel a bit sad for the Effort Poster, I mean, I am sure that he was being honest, we can disagree and still be in good faith.
edited 13th Apr '18 5:12:50 PM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
When the original effortpost was done the story was already finished. At the time he was voted up because the effortposter insisted it wasn't schlock, people assumed good faith, and no one was very interested in examining the story too closely.
edited 13th Apr '18 5:11:40 PM by TommyFresh
Yeah, that was one in retrospect I feel I was too trusting on. Burn Jack’s entry with hellfire and even outside of Creepypasta, I can think of another candidate I’m going to have to view the work myself to really feel comfortable on it.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Which one? I unironically like Creepypastas, so I can help with this.
Oh, I still remember that EP. Jack was proposed shortly after another EP about a werewolf serial killer who was decorating the street with the innards of his victims. Since I up voted that guy, I felt that there was no reason not to up vote Jack, too. Admittedly that was not my most logical reasoning. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
So to Jack.
Here's something I've been waiting to say for a while on Jack: Cut.
No new evidence on Shere Khan, so no on him again. Excellent example of a villain who's past standard villainy but doesn't go quite the extra mile in the end.
edited 13th Apr '18 5:15:33 PM by Scraggle
To Khan.
Yeah, cut Jack from the sounds of it. He seems to pretty much be the same case as candidates that got cut like The unnamed wife from Dating Game where he's in a work that's just interested in having torture, not actually telling a story.
edited 13th Apr '18 5:18:51 PM by Awesomekid42
Original Shere Khan effort post is here
, for those who want references.