During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
A total has-been.
The season premiere was the end of his arc as the Big Bad though. His whole plan seemed to be for the end of getting back his finger and his full strength, while simultaneously draining all magic from Mewni so that Moon, her family, and her subjects are left with nothing, and no spell could be used against Toffee ever again. This almost came to fruition, so there was nothing left for Toffee to do in the story but get killed off so that our next Big Bad could be unleashed.
Also worth noting is that none of Toffee's seemingly decent qualities were actually genuine. He's Faux Affably Evil and a believer in Pragmatic Villainy, akin to Chronos in Class Of The Titans.
edited 28th Jul '17 10:49:10 PM by ANewMan
I have to sadly nay Toffee...
He's a nasty Knight of Cerebus, but falls short of being a CM
A total has-been.
Need to get some sleep now, but I might try arguing some of my own points tomorrow, since CM or not, I feel Toffee was directly responsible for some more explicit things than what got mentioned.
Like reflections in the glass!
@A New Man That's part of why Toffee is contested to me. Even if his stint as a Big Bad is over and with him seemingly dead (keep in mind that Necromancy might not be out of the question, we already saw a ghost by the middle of season 2) that does not mean he would be rendered irrelevant. Flashbacks could also happen to flesh him out without him being Back from the Dead. Just because he'd dead now doesn't mean he can't come back in some form later, and him getting demoted might make it a point against him since his superior might increase the heinous standard .
BTW because Toffee has been compared to Magneto by Word of God, I am curious as to there being any incarnation of Magneto that qualified as a CM. and if its possible for the "Extremist" part of Well-Intentioned Extremist to eclipse the "Well Intentioned" part.
edited 28th Jul '17 11:03:20 PM by MorningStar1337
Lizzid people!
Well; I'll just wait for the remainder of season 3 then.
mm I was leaning for a yes but the more I think about it I feel that he falls short thought he still has the potential if he comes back. I concur that as a whole Battle of Mewni was anticlimatic and poorly paced. Toffee just get his finger and walks off. Did we also need an entire episode with Marco trying to get a key?
Lizzid people!
Yes; it was to free himself and River when they were trapped in the dungeon.
Anyway, I wiped out the EP.
I was going to vote an easy, easy yes to him, but I guess now we have to wait and see. I was honestly 100% sure he would be voted up. He's a vile bastard, through and through, I didn't see him as a Hate Sink at all.
edited 28th Jul '17 11:22:28 PM by MahStache
....can we stop this practice of removing downvoted effort posts? It's seriously bad form.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This. It's good information to keep. Just cause the main consensus is to "wait" doesn't make it a bad thing.
We should always be mature about this. Many characters I find deserve their spot were voted down. It's not a big deal. It's just a trope, not a badge of honor.
Toffee doesn't meet the general definition of Hate Sink either way. He has way too much charm for that.
As for the EP. Yeah, probably need to wait a bit even if his arc is over we still hardly know anything about him.
Lizzid people!
Bad form? I don't regret doing it. Besides, it's saved on my laptop, so I don't see what the problem is.
I didn't want to waste anyone's time. I did, so shouldn't that be a reason? So it's not because of the "badge of honor" thing. If the consensus was wait, I should've done that.
edited 29th Jul '17 12:08:02 AM by AustinDR
No. It's real bad form, because it's starting to be "I didn't get my EP approved, so I'm going to just erase it out of pique, and leave this entire conversation completely without context." It's entirely relevant to keep it there so the thread preserves the EP, characters and discussions.
This shouldn't be done. At all.
No I agree that it's a bad idea. I have a few Old Shame among my earlier proposals but I still resist at the urge of removing them in case someone is looking for them.
Lizzid people!
I find nothing wrong with what I did. I'm saving it for later. That's all.
Caesar
Yeeeaaaahhh, I have to agree with the sentiment that blacking out an entire proposal isn't good to practice. It makes everyone look looney for all of a sudden voting on a candidate that isn't even there, and it eliminates the ability for people to use the search function and check for info on a candidate.
Even if said candidate will be discussed in a few months, that's....still a few months where someone could check to see if a character was discussed, see he apparently wasn't, then try to propose him themselves.
Heck, I was the source of one of the single most embarassing moments on this thread in years because of an effortpost I made out of sheer anger, and despite how utterly degrading the whole situation was, I leave it up to both ensure the character is never discussed again, and as an example of making sure emotions don't cloud one's judgement when making a proposal.
edited 29th Jul '17 12:22:57 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lizzid people!
There's the discussion dates page. I still basically hold reservations over 3 & 4. I'll just wait about 4 months. I still don't really understand what the big deal is, but I'll leave it at that.
Messenger from another dimension.
So we agree Savonarola is a cut, but I also wanna ask if shouldn't we split Edward Braddoc's entry on the page so that he could be listed both under Forsaken and AC III since some of his actions listed happened in III.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
God damn Bolas 
I think we should keep him in Forsaken since his actions in III also occurred in Forsaken as well as the additional crimes he committed in the book onscreen while they were only mentioned in the game.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Bolas
edited 29th Jul '17 1:45:31 AM by G-Editor
It's the due date, so here is an effortpost for the villain from Wish Upon:
Who are they? What do they do?
The villain is a demon/sentient music box that grants wishes. It was originally given to a woman after she preyed for help after she lost everything. It granted her wishes, but after her seventh wish, it claimed her soul. The demon/music box has been passed around the world. It always grants the owner seven wishes, but for each wish, it kills someone close to the owner, and after the seventh wish, it claims the owner's soul.
When the protagonist, Claire, gets the box, her first wish is that Darcie, the Alpha Bitch, would "go rot", causing Darcie to get necrotizing fasciitis. The demon/music box causes Claire's dog Max to die. For her second wish, Claire wishes for Paul, a classmate whom she has a crush on, to fall madly in love with her. Paul proceeds to dump his current girlfriend Lola and begins making obvious advances towards Claire. Meanwhile, because of the wish, Claire's wealthy uncle August dies after slipping in a bathtub and hitting his head. News reaches Jonathan (Claire's dad), and Claire makes her third wish of all her uncle's wealth being transferred to her. Surely enough, Jonathan receives a phone call indicating that Claire has received everything, including her uncle's mansion. Claire's neighbor and maternal figure Mrs. De Luca subsequently dies when her hair is caught in a sink garbage disposal unit, snapping her neck. Claire, still bothered by the inscriptions she cannot translate on the box, consults the help of her classmate Ryan Hui, who harbors feelings for her, and his cousin Gina. They find out that the box can grant seven wishes, and when the music ends, “something” is paid. Claire and Ryan head home and Claire spots her father dumpster diving. She makes her fourth wish; that her father will stop embarrassing her. Jonathan immediately has a personality shift, and takes up playing the saxophone and then finds a new hobby from dumpster diving, which is playing the saxophone with a band. Soon after, Gina deciphers the meaning of the phrase which says "When the music ends, the blood price is paid." Gina tries to warn Ryan, but the demon/music box breaks it's code of only killing those close to the owner to kill Gina in an attempt to keep Claire from learning the truth. Gina dies when she trips and impales her head on a sculpture. Ryan finds her body and learns what she was trying to warn him about and confronts Clare about making wishes on the music box. She does not believe that the deaths are related to the wishes, or that her soul will be claimed when she makes her last wish (Arbitrary Skepticism). Claire selfishly wishes to be the most popular girl in school, which causes the demon to make her friend Meredith to die in an elevator. Finally, Claire realizes the danger of the box, and, after failing to destroy it (because she's too stupid to try wishing for it to undue all of the evil it has done and destroy itself), it disappears, reversing all of Claire's wishes. She loses her popularity, Paul commits suicide in front of her, Darcie recovers, and they lose their house. Claire discovers that her other friend June stole the box, and after stealing it back, Claire uses her sixth wish, that her mother had never committed suicide. Suddenly, on her birthday, her mom, alive and well, knocks on her door, with two younger sisters greeting her. Claire rummages through her mom’s paintings and sees a picture of the music box. She concludes that her mom was one of the previous owners of the music box which caused her to commit suicide before. Suddenly, Claire realizes that her dad will pay the price. Before she can save him, Jonathan gets killed by a chainsaw. Claire uses her last wish to travel back in time to before her father found the box. Claire suddenly snaps awake alongside Max. She calls Meredith, who is alive and well, and her dad is getting ready to go dumpster diving. Mrs. De Luca waves goodbye as Claire goes with Jonathan and Carl to secretly retrieve the music box for good. She asks Ryan to help her dispose of it by burying the box and reciprocates his feeling for her and tells him that she has met his cousin Gina. Suddenly, Claire is killed after she is accidentally run over by Darcie as her friends look on in horror. The laws of time and physics do not affect the "you will die after your seventh wish" policy. In a mid-credits scene, Ryan prepares to bury the music box, but becomes intrigued by the inscription.
Heinousness?
It kills 6 people and a dog. It is also confirmed to have killed many other people throughout the years, which establishes a pattern. It gives Claire her mom back, but than takes her father. It always takes the soul of the owner in the end.
Redeeming features?
Unlike wishes in a lot of other horror fiction, the wishes in this film come out exactly the way that the owner wants (for example, when Claire wishes that her dad would stop embarrassing her, he simply did just that instead of dying so he could no longer do so, and when she wishes that she would be the most popular girl in school, her own popularity is simply boosted instead of the other students all dying or something.) This could just be how it works or an attempt to make her feel good before pulling the rug out from underneath her though.
Mitigating factors?
We never see the demon in it's natural form, only in it's music box form, so obviously, it does not speak. I'm giving it a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
due to lack of characterization.
On a sidenote, the movie was disappointing. They never test the limits of the wishes to see if they can undue the evil that has been done.
jjj
Put the Effort Post back up, Austin.
When the consensus - including myself - is that erasing an EP is a bad thing to do, it's a good thing not to belabour the point. You don't want to make people angry on this thread.
Toffe.
Yes, but the rest of season 3 will be out in November. I was debating on whether to do a brief summary like I did last time.
edited 28th Jul '17 10:43:28 PM by AustinDR