During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Just watched Supergirl (2015), The Flash (2014) and Arrow's finales. While Supergirl was disappointing, I'm satisfied with the other two, especially Arrow.
Now, I know that we have to wait two weeks for any discussion about the Arrowverse, but if you have any question (and don't mind spoilers), you can PM me.
edited 25th May '17 9:28:39 AM by MiraiYuji
I've officially reserved Designated Survivor, Snatched, Baywatch and The Lego Ninjago Movie just so everyone knows. I will let everyone know when I've seen Baywatch so those who have more knowledge of the show can converse with me on its tone compared to the movie.
Messenger from another dimension.
Speaking of Dead Men Tell No Tales, I am going to advanced screening today. Me and my dad are in the car on the way now. If you have questions, shoot me a PM since I reserved discussion. Hopefully internet in my house will be fixed. I am writing from my iPhone.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Planeswalker
If anyone wants to talk Into the Badlands they can PM me.
Oissu!
@emperors I figured you'd be seeing it tonight or Friday since you're heading the discussion come 6/9.
My brother and I are planning to see it and if not tonight, this weekend. I'm planning to go to Snatched with my mom probably and then some point soon, probably with my sister and her husband to Baywatch.
Odd that I, straight male that I am, reserved films like Snatched and Baywatch for discussion. Haha.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Black Demon.
The Unknown Unknown
The Black Demon.
Geez, having to babysit your niece and nephew put me behind.... I'll catch up, I promise!
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
@emperors Well my brother can't do tonight because of the Celtics game, so now I'll be seeing Dead Men Tell No Tales on Saturday at the earliest.
edited 25th May '17 10:26:33 AM by futuremoviewriter
Been two weeks since the Steven Universe season finale (Worst. Season. Ever. I'm talking so bad I legitimately almost dropped the show) and we have no new qualifiers. Kinda hard to do that when the plot slows down to a halt and nothing of importance happens until the season finale.
But the action looks to be picking up for Season 5 (Which seems like it'll be the final season, maybe?), so I'm definitely keeping my eye out for anyone who could count: White and Yellow Diamond are at the top of my list, but I'm also curious as to if this show will have any truly nasty minor villains as well. So yeah, g'bye for now.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
To be fair, Aquamarine could end up counting if she gets more heinous deeds.
TBH, as far as I;m concerned, Yellow Diamond has been completely and utterly disqualified
Honestly, I think the only two antagonists with Steven Universe with actual zilch in likable traits are Kevin and Greg's old manager, and they were just a pair of jackasses meant to garner our hatred. Hell, even Aquamarine, for as much of a little bitch as she is, lets the Topazes off easy after she's cowed them when she could have clearly done worse. Honestly, unless Yellow just up and out of nowhere abandons her grief for Pink Diamond — and, knowing this show, I find that unlikely to ever happen — the only one with any remote chance of qualifying anymore is the as-of-yet unseen White.
Another thing I need to add.... I find it amazingly unlikely any non-Diamond Homeworld Gem would ever count given they're all fundamentally cogs in a horrible system. They're all made to totally and utterly love and obey the Diamonds (remember Jasper's breakdown?) no matter what and it seems the only real exceptions to this are Gems who have been shown a world other than the one they've been conditioned to (so, Lapis and Peridot). Hell, even that has exceptions as well... Navy being as much of a bitch as she was pissed me off so bad.
edited 25th May '17 11:19:58 AM by Scraggle
Admittedly my reasons for keeping an eye on Yellow are mainly due to a theory I've had since before the show returned from the giant hiatus last year that I won't get into since this is not the place for fanwank, but you never know. I remember back when despite being bought up multiple times, One Piece's Doflamingo was ruled as someone who would never count due to his love for his "family"... until near the very end of his arc when it became clear that said redeeming quality was both invalidated and shown to not even be truly redeeming from the start.
I'm probably wasting my time but like I said: you never know.
I see no contradiction with a hetero man wanting to watch Baywatch. I mean, that franchise defines "reading it for the articles."
Plus, Dwayne and Zac are dreamy.
As for Snatched, I guess, but I ain't no man to dismiss no so called "chick flick", but that's me. I am so confident in my sexuality I cry myself to sleep.
On Yellow? When she's shown singing "of course we still love her and we're always thinking of her" before nearly breaking down in tears at the end of it?
Doflamingo quite literally tried to kill his family with everyone else on the island and cheerfully said he'd just get a new everything. That's a very, very different circumstance.
Aquamarine letting the Topazes off easily was out of fear of being poofed not altruism, but that point you made about the non-Diamonds being cogs in a horrible system is valid.
edited 25th May '17 11:32:27 AM by username2527
@PolarPhantom I feel like it'd be too easy for people to mistake me for a girl if I didn't point it out. Bottom line: I'm not a girl. I'm a guy.
I have variety in what I watch and I feel people can be quick to judge because of it.
edited 25th May '17 11:52:42 AM by futuremoviewriter
Actually I didn't see him say that he would kill his family along with the others.
I'm hoping with them bulding up White Diamond so much, even without mentioning her name, that she's a candidate.
Aquamarine (also Navy) have chances if we see them again, but right now they're both just severe Jerkass. The "cog in the system" point is valid, but all gems still have their own sense of morality and Aquamarine would have killed those humans despite being possibly against the Diamond's orders... it's very much a wait and see game right now for everyone in the show, as it runs on a very idealistic morality that nearly everyone has some sort of sympathetic backstory, even cruel space dictators.
All his men were going to be caught up in the Birdcage with everyone else.
Caesar
'Yes' to Black Demon.
@FriedWarthog: You are stronger than I. I just couldn't take it. The hella slow pace, the constant hiatuses, the practically filler eps abounding....I dropped the show. I'll no doubt watch through the eps once the show is finished, but until then, I'm done constantly waiting for new episodes, having to binge the numerous ones that release in a short time period, then going cold turkey again until the next episodes. The fact that the show is so intent on delving into "emotions" and "DA FEELZ" so much recently rather than advance the plot also turned me off.
I'll note that, while Yellow Diamond is basically 99% confirmed to never count, it's not set absolutely in stone. There have been weirder cases of a villain seeming to be sympathetic and/or tragic, only to have it ripped apart in the end. In theory, Yellow Diamond could have just been manipulating Blue Diamond with crocodile tears to make sure she stays on her side. Acting completely cold and unfeeling about one of your former teammates when your current partner is obvious torn up about it isn't exactly a SOUND strategy.
Likely? No. Possible? Sure.
edited 25th May '17 12:06:16 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The problem with that is the breakdown YD has during her Villain Song. It's VERY, VERY hard to fake something like that.
edited 25th May '17 12:10:47 PM by username2527
Lizzid people!
Here is my next candidate, this time from Dr. Cyclops. I had originally seen the candidate in question being removed from the YMMV page because it was an unapproved entry, so I decided to shed some light on this one. Dr. Cyclops is a 1940 science fiction film concerning two biologists receiving a request from one of their colleagues stating for them to come to his laboratory that is hidden away in the jungle. They don't realize what they had just gotten themselves into...
Who is he?
Dr. Alexander Thorkel is a biologist who had spent two years conducting research in a Peruvian jungle.
What has he done?
Eventually, he shows a slide that he had been working on to his pupil Dr. Mendoza. Mendoza is horrified by his mentor's lunacy and requests that he destroy the slide as he was "tampering with powers reserved to God." When he tried to shut down Thorkel's research, Alexander shoves his head through a tube, ergo exposing him to the radium stream.
Sometime later, he sends out a request to fellow biologists Dr. Mary Robinson and Dr. Bullfinch. They are also accompanied by Dr. Bill Stockton (a mineralogist) and Steve Baker, who made it sure to see that his hired mules were being treated well. Alexander greets the group enthusiastically, explaining how since his eyes were going bad, he needed one of them to identify a specimen underneath his microscope. Bill begrudgingly describes the specimen as being iron crystals. Delighted, Alexander thanks them for their trouble, and bids them ado.
Angered that they had been sent a thousand miles for nothing, the group decide to stake out at his home. Whilst they rummage through Thorkel's possessions, Alexander decides to show them what he had been researching on. He explains to them that he had been conducting research into how to shrink organic material. He also explains that he was mining for pitchblende — an ore made out of uranium and radium — in a deep shaft. After multiple failures, Bill's insight helped him to specialize his research. Without any warning, Thorkel imprisons the group in the radiation chamber, and turns it on. When they woke up, they realized that they were shrunken down.
Satisfied with his research, he informs the group that he had tested his shrinking ray on several animals prior to them, only for them to not last an hour. By all means, they should be honored. Bullfinch decides to negotiate with the deranged scientist, but he's only interested in measuring him. When he realizes that the shrinking is temporary, Alexander murders Bullfinch and goes to hunt the remaining members of the group down so that they wouldn't report him to the authorities. The group attempts to escape in Pedro's boat, only to be confronted by Thorkel again. Pedro urges his fiends to escape while he leads Thorkel away. Thorkel shoots him, and tries to burn the others out of the tall grass. Unbeknownst to him, Mary, Steve, and Bill secretly hid in his specimen box.
The group set up a gun that would shoot Thorkel once he went to sleep in his bed. However, he actually ends up sleeping at his desk, so they had to change their plan. They take his spare glasses as well as the ones on his desk. Alexander wakes up, and chases the trio into his mine shaft. As he was trying to slice at them with his knife, the plank underneath him gives way, thus causing him to desperately dangle from the rope. Steve slices the rope, and Thorkel plummets down the mine shaft.
Freudian Excuse? Mitigating factors?
He has none. Now, as for the who Affably Evil thing...I don't buy it. True, Thorkel does as friendly with his guests when they first met him, but taht immediately goes out the window when he imprisons them against their will, uses them as his new guinea pigs, and has no qualms with killing them. At worst, he treats it more as a minor annoyance. Towards the end, he drops the polite demeanor and shows that he was really a madman with a god complex.
Heinous standard
Big Bad, he sets it from the forced experimentation done to the group, to the multiple attempts on destroying them (whether it be poisoning them, burning them, etc), to committing three murders in a needlessly cruel way.
Conclusion
Unsure. Personally could lean either way with him.
edited 26th May '17 6:33:24 AM by AustinDR
Caesar
That's.... Not a very valid argument. Villains steal. Villains cheat. Villains manipulate people. Villains LIE. Shedding a few tears while actively trying to make someone think you are sad isn't exactly something unique about villains or CMs. Maybe most are just used to a villain crying/pretending to care, then smirking aside to themselves while rubbing their hands together, but that's not a requirement for a villain to be revealed to have faked care/sadness about someone to manipulate others.
Look, I don't think Yellow's gonna end upon counting. I really don't. This is a completely hypothetical argument. But I will never discount a villain from POSSIBLY counting until their story is over, as countless CMs have seemed like non-qualifiers in the beginning or middle of their stories only for the end of their story to reveal them as CMs, so yeah, until her arc is over, I'm not discounting anything.
edited 25th May '17 12:18:45 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Never mind on the Butcher then if he's that much of a non-entity in the film. I've seen it and I almost saw it as the terrain was awful enough that it elevated him, but it's probably not the case.
There'll be a slight delay in the Snatched discussion unless I see the movie tonight. That said though, my brother and I may be going to an advanced screening of Dead Men Tell No Tales tonight instead.
edited 25th May '17 9:24:02 AM by futuremoviewriter