During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
With Sabretooth, I'm with Lightysnake. A removal now would be premature. If this new characterisation sticks, we can delete the entry then. Even The Joker has pet the dog at least once or twice in his career. That's just one of the hazards of being a comic book villain.
EDIT: I removed Ares and Sisyphus from the YMMV page for Classical Mythology. We voted a while ago that Ares didn't qualify, and since I can't find that version of the Sisyphus myth, there's no point in keeping it. I also expanded the entry for Tantalus. If enough people vote to add Lycaon, we'll put him up as well. So far I believe Hodor (I keep wanting to call you Jordan), xie 323, and 32_Footsteps have voted for him.
EDIT: I thought, in the absence of having something else to do, I might post a potential right-up for Lycaon here.
- Following in Tantalus' bad, bad example is Lycaon, tyrant of Arcadia, and the first werewolf. Appearing in several compendiums of myth from the time period, the most infamous version of Lycaon's story appears in Ovid's Metamorphoses. A cruel, bloodthirsty ruler, Lycaon was angered when his citizens celebrated Jove's (Zeus) visit to his city. Determined to prove that Jove was not really a god, and was therefore unworthy of their worship, Lycaon offered Jove a room for the night, plotting to murder him in his sleep. He also, like Tantalus before him, sought to test Jove's divinity, by serving the god human flesh at dinner. Butchering a hostage*, Lycaon roasted his flesh, ate some of it himself, and placed it on the table before Jove, who reacted in outrage and disgust, cursing him with lycanthropy. Watching the newly lupine tyrant slaughter a herd of sheep, Jove noted that Lycaon's nature had not changed; it was simply that he was now as savage on the outside as he had always been on the inside.
edited 10th Jan '13 11:16:11 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I have actually heard the version where Sisyphus was moved to tears by Orpheus's music, so I don't think he fits. I've also heard another version of the Tantalus myth where he liked the gods and wanted them to like him by serving his prize possession (that is, his own child) as food to them. I don't think this disqualifies him, though; if anything it makes him even creepier!
Many Greek myths seem to have both more idealistic and more cynical versions; I've even found one that gives Zeus an altruistic motive for sleeping around so much (though this was admittedly in a collection of myths aimed at kids so it might've been an intentional Bowdlerization on the part of the modern retellers for all I know).
edited 9th Jan '13 7:31:14 PM by HamburgerTime
Later myths tend to be less violent then earlier ones, and possess less values dissonance. It seems that later Greek authors, and especially Roman authors, took issue with the protrayal of the gods in the earlier myths, and sought to make them better, and their enemies worse.
Lycaon is actually a good example of this trend in action. In the earliest versions of the myth, his sons are the villains and he suffers their punishment along with them. By the time of Ovid's writing, he's the cannibalistic barbarian mentioned above. Speaking of which, any opinion on him?
The versions of Tantalus I found in the Library of Apollodorus, Hygenius' Fabulae, and Pindar's writings don't even have that excuse going for them. He's just a guy who decided, hey, you aren't that bright, and I'll prove it. Here, eat my son.
edited 9th Jan '13 7:45:11 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
...I'm still pretty dubious about the existence of a mythology/religion page for this trope, period, but boy does it sound like that take on Tantalus would count.
To keep banging on the Dawn Of War example, specifically what Xie said in post 6706:
"As for Kyras it isn't if Do W is canon or not but the same thing as Ma-Ma from Dredd why he qualifies—there is no proof of the even worse aspects of WH 40 K if you DONT know about 40K. It's a different story from Cuu altogether."
Let me count the proof of the worse aspects:
- Exterminatus is mentioned in the first quarter of the game (for the unintiated, it's the complete destruction of an entire world due to Chaos Taint). It was specifically stated that the world was full of people.
- Sindri is testiment to the corruptive nature of Chaos, turning the Blood Raven's librarian (powerful Psyker) against them without him ever realising he was slipping.
- The Necrons weapons are explained to flay people alive, as well as having the Flayed Ones (or Necrons who are drapped in the flesh of their victims), blanks, pretty vivid descriptions of what's left after they're done with a place
- The rumour of what the Tau to do disobedient humans under their control (forced sterializations and concentration camps). The Tau are the closest thing to Lawful Good that the 40k universe has.
- Vect of the Dark Eldar makes an appearance, and that the Dark Eldar (a group of raping, pillaging space pirates) appear shows some of the darkest parts of the 40k universe.
- Abbaddon the Dispolier making appearances, the guy whose launched 13 Black Crusades and whose plan is to slaughter his way to Earth (literally, his plan is to cause so many deaths on Cadia that it ends up being absorbed into the Warp, then repeat the process for every planet until he absorbs Earth into it. Considering that the Death Toll of the 13 Black Crusades is utterly massive beyond counting, this would make Abbaddon the one singular character with the highest body count in the 40k universe. That this plan is utterly retarded is another matter entirely).
So I just can't buy the "there's no proof of the worst aspects" argument. The Ciaphas Cain hides the worst aspects of the unviverse, is anyone going to suggest adding the villians from that series because it's not fair to judge it in comparison to the rest of the Black Library?
I'm still waiting for a good argument as to why a canon work to the 40k universe should be treated as seperate to it for the purpose of this trope.
Re: Sabretooth in X Factor. He was revealed to have been faking that, and turned on them later.
Also, on the mythology issue...I feel some people are misunderstanding certain mythologies. Plenty of cultures had extremely understandable and human gods, and not every evil god is a Flat Character or generic. Angra Mainyu/Ahriman is a terrific example of this. He has a choice, a personality and does everything as he wants to do it. He even has a moment where he declares "Could be good. Don't wanna." and proves it.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Wait... rape to death? But... how the... with that... and whut? I don't even understand how that's even possible on a sheer "physical possibility" level. Perhaps this speaks to one area where I'm blissfully sheltered.
Regrettably, it's way more plausible than you might think. See also, the poor Indian girl who's been on the news lately. Or don't, if you wish to remain blissfully ignorant.
As for FIM, the 'but it's for adults too!' argument is the height of appropriative ridiculousness. No it's not. It's a show for little girls with regular lessons about the nature of friendship that just happens to have the occasional bit of Parental Bonus. And you know what? If you like that, that's OK. Lots of others do too. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Lost in Space
I'm going to go back to Fax from Dragonriders Of Pern briefly, because the question was brought up and I want to clarify. Fax intended Gemma to die in childbirth. He had sex with her (this is confirmed in the story) against her will, while she was near-term and had just endured a long horseback ride, knowing that it might result in premature labor. When informed that she was in labor, he displayed only amusement.
I throw this out there for the thread to evaluate. I personally think it qualifies, but I'm biased.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Some time ago, I asked to cut the redirects to Complete Monster for being misleading and I think two tropers weighed in in favour. If nobody objects, I'll throw them on the Cut List soon.
Also, I'd like to bring up The Legend of Zelda, The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and also The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask due to overlapping examples. To wit:
Main page entry:
- Complete Monster:
- Zant, first and foremost for executing Queen Rutela as a warning for the other Zoras, and turning his own people, the Twili, into monsters to help him conquer Hyrule.
- Then there is Majora, who causes a lot of destruction in Termina because it finds it fun to do so.
- Cole and Malladus.
- Ghirahim.
Majora's Mask entry (which is also on Monster.Video Games):
- Complete Monster: Majora not only goes into a sadistic rampage affecting several characters, but threatens to send a whole moon (albeit a relatively small one) crashing into Termina because it's FUN.
Skyward Sword entry:
- Complete Monster: Ghirahim, for his unsettling blood lust and the horrific things he promises to do to Link. While not to a Majora level of evil, he's still pretty depraved. Even Demise comes off as slightly less evil, and he's the God of Evil who wants to Kill All Humans!
- It comes off as Fridge Brilliance when you realize that Ghirahim is a living weapon for Demise, thus Ghirahim's thirst for blood and the screams of his victims eerily suit his demeanor.
My main complaints is that the mainpage entries are too sparse and Ghirahim is described as less evil than Majora. With Majora it's cited as an Eldritch Abomination. Sure they qualify?
edited 10th Jan '13 8:56:27 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I think there were at least two of us who wanted Pure Evil kept as a redirect.
Lesse on Pure Evil: Against, Against, Against, For, For, Against?. 3 Against, 2 For and 1 Against?
About Irredeemable Villain, only thing I can see is Against and Against
edited 10th Jan '13 9:04:20 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
For Zelda...the games are different enough that I can see allowing both with the 'less evil' line removed
I don't play video games, so I can't tell whether various items in the Zelda series can be evaluated on the same terms.
However, about Ghirahim, being called a living weapon for someone else as well as the fact that he's apparently threatening only one person - Link - makes me think he doesn't belong.
Also, I notice that after the Great Tolkien Debate last year, we didn't remove the characters other than Melkor from YMMV.The Silmarillion - Glaurung, Celegorm, Curufin and Eöl. I remember Fighteer, me, Nocturna and Lighysnake voting against them and nobody in support, so I am going to remove them soon unless someone objects.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
What I recall...Ghirahim does a lot more damage about onscreen. I need to take a refresher. Needs a memory boost anyways
Zelda is complicated in regards to how they compair to each other. There are some games that closely match each other in tone and others that are way different. Like I would lump Link to the Past, 4 Swords, and Links Awakening together, Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass together, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask together, and The Legend of Zelda and Adventures of Link together tone-wise. I have not played many of the others though, so no suggestions there.
edited 10th Jan '13 10:21:12 AM by willthiswork
With lightysnake's vote that's four for Lycaon, plus me. Will put him on the sandbox. We now have 5 candidates: Tantalus, Lycaon, Apophis, Haman, and Angra Mainyu. All of them have recieved a fair number of votes (I think Apophis was the most controversial, so he's a real maybe). Again, if I've counted wrong, or if opinions change, let me know. This is still a sandbox, and can easily be changed before launching.
EDIT: I've altered Haman's entry somewhat. The original entry spent devoted a little too much time gloating about his failure to convince the king to kill Mordechai, so I've removed that line. I've also added a bit about how unlike some Biblical antagonists, he's not an agent of divine retribution, or anything of the sort. The page is here if you want to see for yourselves.
edited 10th Jan '13 11:23:39 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
The YMMV/X-Men page needs work.
- Complete Monster: X-men goes back and forth on this. Magneto, Mystique, and Lady Deathstrike have both been shown to have redeeming qualities amongst other villains. Mojo isn't sympathetic at all, but his humorous side pushes him more towards Evil Is Funny. Villains who are scum and deserve nothing more than to be put down like rabid animals include Apocalypse, Cassandra Nova, Cameron Hodge, Dark Beast, Donald Pierce, Fabian Cortez, Selene, The Marauders, Mister Sinister, the Sentinels, Sabretooth, Sebastian Shaw, the Shadow King, and Reverend Stryker. Apocalypse, Selene, and the Shadow King, in particular, are portrayed as demonic evil.
- Reverend Stryker is a rather sad case as he actually subverted the trope when he, after being manipulated by Lady Deathstryke but then bonding somewhat with Shadowcat, redeemed himself in God Loves, Man Kills II...only for the writers of House of M and Decimation to, for no reason given, revert him back to his bigoted, murderous religious zealot ways, and he just gets killed off twice.
- Mechanical life form Bastion. When the Nimrod Sentinel Merged with master Mold, it became a humanoid monster that, despite being aparently human on the outside, is actually the most powerful sentinel ever made, and can control lesser sentinels to do his bidding. Now with human level thought, it still decides to kill all mutants, despite now having no reason to do so, considering one of the things that built into it was a heroic sentinel that decided mutants weren't its enemy. But then, it takes almost sadistic glee in torturing mutants to death, both emotional and physical, and has no qualms about doing so to a thirteen year old girl. Then it kills Nightcrawler! Yes! Nightcrawler!
A good chunk of these are listed on the Marvel page, except for Cameron Hodge, Dark Beast, Sebastian Shaw, and Bastion.
That's really bad. Of the characters listed there, Donald Pierce, Selene, and Apocalypse are probably the stand outs for me. Pierce in particular is just a flat out revolting character, given his history of going after childre, the infirm, and those who otherwise cannot defend themselves. Also, much as I'm not a Wolverine fan, the issue where Pierce crucified him? Nightmarish. I believe he's one of the ones who already has a decent write-up on the Marvel page that we can transplant.
Is anybody familiar enough with Bastion to determine his moral agency?
edited 10th Jan '13 12:31:11 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
@6769: That entry does not need to mention people who don't qualify, by the way. Most of these examples (and are they examples or not? It's kinda self-contradicting) have no context.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Bastion is...complicated. Agency wise, he was created like Nimrod before, but he's absorbed enough since to basically have complex intelligence and free will.
Lost in Space
It's kind of missing the point of the trope to list examples of people who don't qualify.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I am going to channel 32 Footsteps here - delete with extreme prejudice.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Let me also chime in that The Shadow King, AKA: Amal Farouk, Sabretooth and Mr. Sinister are standouts.
Put it this way. One comic had him slaughter a large group of people with a panel revealed he'd taken a little girl and locked her in his closet for a snack later on.
I always used to wonder why people saw Bullseye as a CM as well, until I opened a few Daredevil comics with him on full display. Reading the right issues can alter your perceptions. Heck, even on the animated series, Sabretooth is pretty monstrous with the implication that one of the last times we see him, he's going to gorily kill his own son. I'm not saying you have to ever read a Sabretooth comic, but...he has a lot on display.
In the recent Uncanny X Force series, he also acted like a father to Wolverine's neglected son solely to trick Wolverine into killing him and hurting himself even more, and always having to know it's Sabretooth's fault
edited 9th Jan '13 4:12:51 PM by Lightysnake