Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

The Godfather-Page needs some cleanup https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Monster/TheGodfather

My opinion on everyone

Carlo = Keep. He was easily the most vile person in the whole trilogy. But a longer entry would be good.

Luca Brasi = He doesn't count when we just look at his film-potrayal, but I didn't read the book, so I don't know if it all happened on-screen or not. If not, remove him due to offscreen-villainy.

Ciccio = Keep. His murders on Vito's family where (safe for his father, but we saw how much misery it brought) all on-screen and he is really without any redeeming quality.

Gilday = I'd say cut. Pope or not, he just kills one man, and really isn't shown to be that terrible throughout the movie. Pretty standart double-crosser.

Zaza = I'd say cut him too. Pretty Standart mobster in my eyes. Also, he had at least the excuse of not getting the appropriate recognition for his services to the mafia.

Mosca = The only point where I don't know what to decide. He is pretty homicidal, brutal, remorseless and without any shown redeeming features on the one hand, but on the other hand, he is just a hired gun.

edited 8th Jan '13 12:34:39 PM by Forenperser

I say cut them all. This is such a Crapscack World and they all fail the heinous standard.

The intro is incredibly annoying to me on the Godfather page, and I think it's because of the phrasing suggesting how OMGZHARD it is to label C Ms. Ugh. Also, the whole thing needs to be reformatted to have one bullet per person, not all this sub-bullet crap.

• Carlo: I would need a massive expansion of the entry to pass judgment.
• Luca Brassi: I want to know if the novel events are shown happening before passing judgment.
• Don Ciccio: Remove that unnecessary explanation mark after the Would Hurt a Child note, and maybe rewrite for grammar, but keep.
• Gilday: Remove. There's some serious religious myopia going on there.
• Zaza: I can't remember who the fuck that guy is, so I'd say remove just for being a Zero Context Example, at least.
• Mosca: The entry is pretty waffling, but I would say cut anyways. It seems like the entry is predicating a lot of the CM status on the fact that a hired gun killed a bunch of guards, which is bog standard for a film series on the Mafia, not to mention that killing Mary, while carrying a lot of weight in the story count, brings him to a body count of two named characters. Again, pretty standard for a hired gun in the Godfather universe, and Ciccio outdoes him in terms of inflicting misery on the characters.

I don't think the Godfather is a Crapsack World by any stretch of the imagination. It's a crime series. They revolve around crime, but it is alternately glamourized and denigrated within the narrative. The Godfather is about as crapsack-y as Criminal Minds, which is to say not at all. Crapsack World, as well, has never been a disqualifier for C Ms.

edited 8th Jan '13 12:47:32 PM by LargoQuagmire

@Lightysnake: the reason several of us keep bringing up things like Flat Character is because it's inherent in this trope. It's right there in the word "complete". A CM has to be somewhat one-dimensional, because monstrosity is the only dimension the trope allows!

Now a CM may be a complex character, so completely equating this to Flat Character may be going too far. (And a character that's too flat is likely to be a Generic Doomsday Villain.) But the complexity all has to be within the dimension of monstrosity, so there's little room for building a real, three-dimensional character. Which is why this tends to be a bad writing trope. It's not always—certainly, it's a Justified Trope in horror (where being frightened is more important than being realistic) and in YA fiction (where simple, easily understandable characters are appropriate)—but aside from those cases, it's usually, in my experience, a case of bad writing. It may be a minor lapse, especially in a long-running series, but this trope is not, in general, something a writer should be proud of using.

Yes, it's possible to do it well—Tropes Are Not Bad—but in my experience, it's very rare, outside of the genres where it's justified.

Ciccio is possibly the only character that I would keep, but still I am not sure if he meets the heinous standard. He is a Mafia Boss after all! They were all doing things like that in those times. We should move away from Protagonist-Centered Morality and face facts. He is without a question the best potential candidate from the series, but I don't think that he quiet crosses the line.

First of all, "those times" isn't really a thing, because the Mafia still exists to an extensive degree.

Secondly, there is literally almost no one in The Godfather not in the Mafia. The Godfather is a Planet of Hats, where the hat is 'organized criminal'. If someone does something heinous in that universe, I feel like it should not be disqualified because "they're a crime boss". Almost everyone is somehow attached to the Mafia, so it should go without saying that a CM would be in with the mob. I agree that right now, Ciccio is really the only strong CM candidate, but he can't be eliminated for being something everyone else in the narrative is.

@ Largo

Maybe like this? Feel free to correct and re-write me, like always, I know my grammar sucks

• Carlo Rizzi mercilessly abuses his wife several times (one time completely on-screen and one time in a Gory Discretion Shot) and double-crossed the Corleones because of his lust for power, which ultimately results in the brutal death of Sonny Corleone and the following grief uppon his family. Its also noteworthy that his whole reason to marry Connie was getting into crime. His beatdown by Sonnie and garrotation by Clemenza are among the two most satisfying moments in the whole trilogy.

Also, concerning Zasa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6M-YT5kkio

@ Krystof Well, Vito is a mob-boss too, but he never did anything that heinous.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:03:30 PM by Forenperser

Granted that it was a long time ago since I've seen the movie so I have been convinced. Vote to keep Ciccio now. Wow, Carlo's entry is really good! Vote to keep him too. Cut everyone else.

Weblinks are not examples. You're going to need to describe what happens in it if you want it taken into account.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:08:37 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'm getting the feeling Rizzi is less heinous than Ciccio, for whatever reason. Probably because his body count is less than Ciccio's... but at the same time, the abuse of the wife is pretty bad. I'll think on it, and I'll watch the Zasa video.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:08:56 PM by LargoQuagmire

I know nothing about The Godfather. From what people have said, I can see Ciccio counting. I don't know enough about the other characters to reach any sort of informed decision.

@6630

I have to disagree with you, at least somewhat. For one thing, lightysnake's complaint was that Krystoff was assuming anything less then "it moved, kill it" was a disqualifier of sorts, not that a CM is usually a brilliantly written character. Aside from that, I wouldn't say a CM is usually a sign of bad writing. It definitely can be, but if used properly, it can be used for really good shock/horror value. I would also contend that the need to frighten your audience applies outside of the horror genre. In any situation where you want both the characters and the audience to feel absolute fear, a CM can be a very appropriate antagonist, if done right.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:13:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

The video was just to help Largo remember ;) Like I wrote above, I think Zasa is just a standart mobster that doesn't count.

And concerning Carlo, I guess we just have to vote if he counts or not.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:14:28 PM by Forenperser

@6637: I wasn't trying to defend Krystoff's position on any particular character. Just pointing out that there is a reason for thinking this is related to Flat Character.

I also disagree about this being perfectly acceptable to use just to frighten people outside of horror or YA. It may be justified for the same reasons that it can be justified in YA (too much character development may distract from the story), but in my experience, all too often, it falls flat, and weakens the story, and makes suspension of disbelief harder.

On the other hand, I merely said "horror", not "horror genre". If a work is going for horror elements, even though it's not strictly an example of the genre, that may well be justified. But again, I find too many such examples to also display problematic quality, even if it might be going too far to call it outright bad writing. The one from Leverage, for example, is among my least favorite episodes because it fell into this trope. I still like the show, but I found the use of this trope to be a definite flaw.

It's associated with Flat Characters because it is far easier to write a Complete Monster if you don't develop their motivations; doing so risks the audience sympathizing with them. It's far easier to say that your badguy tortures and rapes For the Lulz without explaining why in any meaningful way.

Incidentally, I'd say that horror genre villains are automatically disqualified from CM status on the basis that the premise of the genre itself requires them. It's sort of an Omnipresent Trope. You don't want to make them sympathetic, or if you do, it's merely a means to defeat them with The Power of Love or something. In a weird way, they are too generic to meet the heinous standard.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:30:32 PM by Fighteer

Have we reached a ruling regarding Shion yet (page 263)? To summarize the list of evil deeds while nuts, she (accidentally) kills her grandmother Onryu Sonozaki with a tazer, burns and whips her corpse post mortum (note: she was pissed because she wanted Onryu to be alive for all of this), then dumps the corpse down a very deep well. (Second note: viewer reaction to this first murder tends to go along the lines to Kick The Son Of A Bitch due to the "distingiushment scene"). She then captures Kimioyshi (village head) and proceeds to torture him involving a hanging shackles device (he dies later on from it). Later on, she planned to torture Rika Furudae before Rika killed herself (note: she actually DOES torture Rika to death in Watanagashi-hen, but this was offscreen). This is followed by the torture/murder of Satako Houjou (involving a crucifix and being stabbed to death with a large knife) in front of Shion's twin sister Mion who she was impersonating through much of the 2nd and 5th novels. The next morning she attempts to torture Keiichi (Mion's love interest) involving hammering very long nails through the joints of his fingers before she is interuppted. She later kills Mion with the tazer (she falls down the well) and stabs Keiichi with a kitchen knife that following night before plummeting to her death.

-Major note on this example: This example is PURELY under the "Alternate Universe or alternate time line clause". In the PS 2 version, there is a bonus timeline called the "Exorcism Chapter" that takes place right after Meakashi-hen, which is tinged with irony as she becomes murderously violent again, but this time the motive is protecting the very same girl (Satako) that she gruesomlely murdered in Meakashi-hen. The victim of this murder is another Complete Monster known as Teppei Houjou. The true villain in this path is actually Rena.

-Edit: Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni is a hybrid horror/mystery novel series (has some issues with the decalogue but for the most part is mostly complient with Knox's Decalogue) rather than a pure horror series. The later half starts taking on more aspects of mystery than horror.

-Edit 2: Her motive is that she's a Yandere taken Beyond the Impossible (one of the most infamous in all of anime and visual novels) driven mad by paranoia over the disappearance of her love interest Satoshi Houjou. After killing Satako, even she starts lampshading (in her own head) that she's past redemption at this point.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:37:56 PM by magnum12

I see nothing in that paragraph about her motivations. Torture and murder may be heinous but you need to demonstrate moral agency and lack of redeeming features as well.

There are other reasons to use Complete Monster. I think Luca Blight in Suikoden II was depicted as a complete monster in order to drive the two protagonists apart, ie: he was so bad that your best bud was willing to do some truely awful stuff in order to get rid of him. His complete monsterness also served as a contrast to more sympathetic villians.

But yeah, they are more like story devices than actual characters.

Now I will say a thing about Luca Brasi. What happened in the book happened in the flashback so it is onscreen. However, he is disqualified anyway because he is very loyal to the Corleone family making him another example of a 99% monster.

From what I saw of the movies, Ciccio seemed to be the only one of them that counts. Carlo sounds like an abusive wife beater, which is fairly common in a series like that. I'm not saying that's not heinous, but that it's standard villainy in that kind of series from what I know.

Also since the examples for Inuyasha have been narrowed down to just Naraku and a maybe on Mukutso, anyone want to cut the Inuyasha page and just put Naraku's rewrite on the main Monster.Anime And Manga page?

Or we could just keep the page and use it to elaborate on Naraku. His entry needs to be rewrittened, but not so that it negates the despicableness of his deeds.

Also to elaborate on Naraku, he's a whole merging and is never referred to as an "it" rather a "him". He's one demon and not multiple, which means he's not a group.

I'm going to check on some of the other Anime and Manga pages and maybe on their YMMV pages too.

Also I hate to beat a dead horse with My Little Pony, but it could be possible for the series to have a monster, it's just very unlikely. Darkrai, Pokemon Hunter J, etc are all in Pokemon, a series also about friendship and targeted at kids. If they can count and the work still be lighthearted, I don't see why Friendship Is Magic can't have a monster villain.

I don't think any of the current villains even come close to qualifying and I removed Sombra from the YMMV page and added to the note not to add him again.

@6640

I don't know about that. Jason Voorhees' Freudian Excuse and sympathetic motivations don't make him less frightening. Leatherface is a mentally handicapped man being used by the rest of his family. Still scary. Even Michael Myers manages to achieve a degree of sympathy in Rob Zombie's remake of Halloween without losing any of the fear factor. I would agree that in horror films the bar for heinousness is set high, but it's still possible for villains to qualify.

Doesn't Shion genuinely love her twin, Mion, or am I having wrong series flashbacks?

Because it is a lighthearted show and level of heinousness is simply unobtainable. I cannot imagine a villain going above and beyond in such a show. I am going to argue against the irredeemable reason because I think that Discord, Chrysalis, and Sombra were all perfect examples of irredeemable villains. But they are just standard cartoonish villains who don't do much (and Discord is even Played for Laughs to some extent).

As for you Pokemon argument, I will tell you that I am not really familliar with those, honestly. Don't realy care either; as I said I don't watch much Anime except for Death Note.

edited 8th Jan '13 1:46:39 PM by Krystoff

Yes. Normally, they get along swimingly and Shion's normally a decent person. However, I'm talking about the timelines where she's completely off her rocker, hence the "Alternate timeline clause".

edited 8th Jan '13 1:46:12 PM by magnum12

Actually, in The Godfather book and film...I can't think of any other wife beater but Carlo. Michael loses control and slaps Kay in Godfather 2, but that was once, unlike Carlo who is a pretty sadistic and repeated abuser. It's also seen as a special kind of bad even by someone like Sonny and Michael.