During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I legitimately think Quagmire blots out almost everyone else. He's an explicit Serial Rapist and heavily implied pedophile and murderer as well and the sympathetic characters are completely okay hanging out with him. On, say, Law and Order SVU, Quagmire would probably be a CM.
Tbh, I don't see anyone in Family Guy as a legitimately "sympathetic" character. Meg, contrary to her The Woobie status has committed her fair share of heinous acts (attempting to have Chris date-raped for one). Brian isn't sympathetic in the least. He has killed, raped and committed other horrible crimes just like the rest of the Griffins.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Didn't she and Stewie, like, destroy a LOT of stuff? Like, India AND Pakistan? You...may have a point there.
edited 15th Jun '16 3:34:53 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ACW, that still doesn't compare to Bertram trying to destroy the multiverse (ala everyone in existence). You can't really get anymore heinous than that.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, right, forgot about that. Resources question? And wow we are focusing way too much on this ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Anyone got some more actual candidates? 
edited 15th Jun '16 4:05:32 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@ Lighty, I love Rick's car, every joke with it was darkly hilarious. That was the same episode where Ricks kills trillions of beings so he can power his car, I don't think there will ever be a CM in Rick and Morty
I feel like with Western animation, ironically most of the monsters are from shows and movies aimed at kids, mainly because western animation aimed at kids will often try to tell serious stories, while animation aimed at adults is mostly dark comedies with screwed up heinious standards. The only exceptions been a few direct DVD animated movies aimed at adults that tell more serious stories. MLP has a far better shot of having a CM then South Park or Family Guy.
Speaking of Western animation, I actually saw the first season of the new Voltron show, Netflix's first kids action show (made by some of the same people who made Korra). I can discuss it next week, but I don't think there is much to report on it at the moment, but I don't want to break the two week rule.
I know there was that terrible Voltron cartoon that came out 5 years ago, I heard one of the villains was an Omnicidal Maniac, but that cartoon looks bad, so I don't really want to watch it to find it.
I could do an effort post on Skonk from Mirage TMNT, who may count, but I have my doubts.
edited 15th Jun '16 5:28:15 PM by Overlord
Yeah we'll need to wait for more seasons of Voltron before we discuss it.
True, but this new Zarkon is still a character worth watching for the future.
I heard Netflix split the first season into two parts and the second part will debut in 6 months, don't know if that is true or not, but we may learn more about Zarkon in those episodes.
edited 15th Jun '16 5:52:02 PM by Overlord
What about Futurama? Or does Bender commit too many crimes for anyone to count on that as well?
We are not so hard up on examples we need to start examining comedy shows like Futurama. We're just...not.
Futurama. Rick and Morty. south Park. Family Guy. American Dad. The Simpsons. All shows of this type and this ilk? Nobody counts. Nobody is worth discussing. Nobody is worth mentioning. They are not worth talking about here except as to be the anti-examples and show just what it means for nobody to ever, ever count from them. Nobody will ever count from them. And why is that? Because they're comedy shows. Almost everything there is meant to be funny in conventional or darker ways. Everything, at the end of the day is meant to tie into the humor. Some things break this mold, but even then, none of them are ever, ever, ever in a hundred thousands million year from now to the heat death of the universe are going to have a complete monster in them.
That's the end of that story.
edited 15th Jun '16 6:12:02 PM by Lightysnake
I think it might be a good idea to add Family Guy to the "Never Again" list, preferably under the same reason with South Park. Something like this:
- Family Guy and South Park
- Given that all evil actions in these cartoons are Played for Laughs, and that they (mostly) have Negative Continuity, no character can qualify.
edited 15th Jun '16 6:22:15 PM by toonyloon
Lizzid people!
A few pages ago, I had questioned the validity of Ryan Anderson, and I didn't receive any feedback on my questions. Doesn't he fail the heinous standard, as his one (attempted) victim was his sister, while other antagonists are either mass murderers, serial killers, powerful vampires and demons, etc.
edited 16th Jun '16 12:41:47 AM by AustinDR
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
That's a good point. Just read his writeup on the monster page; he only tries to kill one person. Granted, the person is a little girl, but still....it's one person. Shouldn't that candidate get scratched ASAP?
Wild Child
I'm leaning ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
on Ryan, but I'll wait for more responses.
Also, this may be off-topic, but I'm searching through old discussions, and I'm a little put off that when I try to read discussions on Frieza, nearly all the discussions I get are about Abridged!Frieza.
edited 15th Jun '16 7:06:01 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
on Ryan Anderson. I am honestly surprised he was voted up in the first place.
Caesar
Ah yes. That was all the work of one troper. The...."determinated"....fellow randomly showed up and injected Abridged!Freeza into conversations at LEAST 3 or 4 times. When said troper got a suspension, he/she/it made the.....interesting....choice to mouth off to the mods. That went about as well as one could expect.
Unsure on Ryan. I'm leaning , but I feel like there's a reason he was put there in the first place, so I'm withholding judgement until someone who has seen his episode(s) can step forward and give an account.
Considering how Ryan was just a kid who was probably no more than 12, I feel like there should be more than him being outdone in heinousness by supernatural beings for why he should be cut. From what I looked up, Ryan is one of only three human CM's in the buffyverse. And the other two human CM's still have supernatural abilities from what I looked up.
Leaning to a for Ryan though. Despite being a regular human, I feel he could do way worse.
edited 15th Jun '16 7:21:02 PM by kirbystarwarior
Anyway, I will do an effort post on Skonk and see people thinks about it, but I do have some doubts about him.
Who is Skonk? What has done?
Skonk is the leader of a right wing militia survivalist group called the Committee to Restore American Patriotism (CRAP for short) who fear they will miss their chance to prove themselves great survivalists after the US and USSR nuke each other (this was written back in 1987). Skonk and his group kidnap a University of Massachusetts student of nuclear physics and force him to create a nuke. Skonk plans to nuke New York and hopes that might even start a nuclear war.
The Ninja Turtles come across the student (they are hiding in Northampton, after suffering a defeat from the newly returned Shredder, this a filler story between two major Shredder arcs) after he escapes the group and Skonk shoots him dead. Skonk sends his militia to kill the Turtles thinking they are people in costumes and wanting there to be no witnesses to his group's activities.
The Turtles defeat the militia, so Skonk goes back to his base, intending to denote the nuke. The Turtles and Splinter try to reason with Skonk, saying he will kill an untold number of people, Skonk says he doesn't care, that Americans that allowed the US to fall from its former greatness are not innocent. However Donatello removed the nuclear charge from the bomb, making it a regular bomb and Skonk ends up just killing himself instead.
Is he heinious by the standard of the story?
This is tricky, because Mirage TMNT has the most bizarre continuity I have seen in a comic, with half the issues in volume 1 being deemed out of continuity (some of those issues were truly bizarre) and all of volume 3 being declared non cannon. Of the street level Mirage villains, he does seem to be aiming for a pretty high body count.
I mean Shredder is not even that heinious in the Mirage universe, killing Splinter's master because Splinter's master killed his brother and trying to kill the Turtles when they tried to avenge Splinter's master. Shredder seemingly died in first encounter, but he returned and tried to kill them. Really Shredder is not guilty of much in the Mirage Universe.
Baxter Stockman was a scum bag, but he was deemed a close but no cigar villain when I brought up, he had a decent body count, but actually could have been worse.
So of the major villains, Skonk stands out, but he does only have one truly evil act under his belt, trying to nuke NYC and possible start a war.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
No real Freudian Excuse, he is just some psycho survivalist and doesn't seem to care about the rest of group, I don't think his ideology is supposed to be sympathetic. The Turtles call him deranged, but I think he is another bitter far right survivalist fanatic, I don't think he is criminally insane.
Donatello is sad he killed him, because he didn't like that he took a human life (except the Turtles kill Foot Ninja all the time, but there is a blood feud going on between the Turtles and the Foot).
Donatello says a very basic level he can sympathize with Skonk, saying who doesn't want to survive in a world on the brink of nuclear annihilation. That seems weird and frankly I think Donatello is kinda of a hippie in this comic, he seems more adverse to violence then other Turtles. He once usied a machine gun to kill a Foot Elite Ninja and reacting with horror with what he had done. So I'm not sure if we are supposed to be agree with Donatello or if Donatello is trying to see something good in Skonk that is simply not there, Skonk didn't do anything that should have earned Donatello's sympathy.
Final Verdict?
I am not sure whether this character counts or not. What do you think?
edited 15th Jun '16 7:30:03 PM by Overlord
Wild Child
3 or 4 times? I counted up to 6 times he brought Abridged!Frieza up.
Anyways, regarding Ryan, I don't think resources is necessarily a valid argument. There are kid C Ms who have done worse than him, Henry Evans being an example.
edited 15th Jun '16 7:23:29 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Even so, that doesn't really pass the baseline standard.
edited 15th Jun '16 7:24:58 PM by username2527
Leaning ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
on Skonk. Out of curiosity, what was in the V1 comics that got excised? If it's weird for TMNT, than I'm interested.
Ryan
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
I'm leaning towards for Skonk. And leaning towards finding out more about this Mirage comic series...
Ryan's concerned me for a while. I think I'll vote him down.
I'm always skeptical of underage candidates myself. I'd vote one up if I were really convinced, but... bit of real-world psychology here: real Antisocial Personality Disorder (formerly called sociopathy) can only be reliably diagnosed in adults because all children display at least some APD tendencies due to being, well, immature.
edited 15th Jun '16 8:27:56 PM by HamburgerTime
Even with Penelope's level of heinousness wouldn't be enough to qualify in Family Guy. I would say the closest character to this trope would be Bertram (if he wasn't for like nearly every other character on the show, being Played for Laughs). He tried to destroy the entire multiverse to prevent Stewie from ever being born despite knowing that this would erase all of reality.