During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
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to everyone I missed").
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What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
...people do lie to themselves. and again, Akainu's actions are so heinous he doesn't believe in justice, only power and control.
So, you're arguing Akainu is such a diehard follower of the WG because he enjoys the suffering it causes? There is literally no canonical precedent for that. Besides, his actual entry on the CM page says he straddles CM and WIE, which is against our policy if nothing else.
Then a rewrite is needed. Akainu hasn't done anything altruistic, nor has he done anything that shows he really is a Well-Intentioned Extremist.
It says he 'crosses that barrier.'
And no, I am saying (as was Iaculus), that there's nothing well intentioned about a bigoted dictatorship that Akainu is trying to keep in power. And as pointed out, his actions indicate plain cruelty and sadism. If he thinks he's doing the right thing? That makes him delusional, not redeemable
Again. Discussed already. Wait until the series gives us new info, then try your case again.
So, if your argument is "Anyone who would prop up such a government is delusional," are you arguing that Sengoku, Garp, and all the other sympathetic characters who think the WG is in the right are also delusional? After all, at the very least, those two know of the slave trade and do nothing about it.
Well, yes, they're deeply flawed people. Unlike Akainu, they don't murder their own soldiers for speaking the truth, murder refugees, and Garp is clearly torn apart by Ace's death while Sengoku resigns when the corruption of the WG is too much to handle.
Akainu just takes his place. I think the difference is obvious
Sengoku resigned from the Navy. The new movie shows he still works for the Government itself.
And in this world, the alternative to the WG is generally the pirates, who by and large are more like Krieg than Luffy. It's the old Hobbesian "tyranny vs. chaos" argument. And maybe Dragon will Take a Third Option, but it's much too early to tell that.
edited 4th Jan '13 9:56:18 PM by HamburgerTime
The point still stands. Sengoku and Garp have had doubts and redeeming qualities. Akainu doesn't.
Some pirates are good, some are evil. some marines are good. Some are evil. Akainu is the latter.
As for Inuyasha
Naraku: Easy keep.
Hakudoshi: and Akago: Cut Akago, keep Hakudoshi
False water god: too much Off Stage Villainy. Cut
Goshinki: On the fence here
Shiori's grandfather, Taigokumaru: Keep. Easily. The most foul minor Yokai in the series bar none. Not only the mass slaughter and manipulation of his granddaughter, but he, in flashback, murders his own son for defending humans. This carries him beyond the heinous standard.
Noh Mask: Cut
Spider H Ead Monk: cut
Magutsuhi: On the fence, given everything Naraku does can be laid at him by proxy
Mukotsu: Cut. It seems wiping out villages is seriously commonplace here.
Tokajin, the Sennin: Keep. The fact he's a normal human who gained powers and committed so many onscreen atrocities?
edited 4th Jan '13 10:26:45 PM by Lightysnake
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Akainu does have another potential disqualifying factor - he spared the more moderate Admiral Aokiji's life in what was supposed to be a Duel to the Death for leadership of the Marines (for the record, Aokiji challenged him in the first place).
What's precedent ever done for us?
It's worth noting we don't know the circumstance whatsoever.
If Off Screen Villainy isn't a qualifying factor, offscreen kindness probably shouldn't be a disqualifying one. I'm inclined to leave that one because we have no idea what happened beyond them fighting and Aokiji living. For all we know Akainu thought he wasn't worth killing, or felt it was harder to live with the shame, as opposed to any form of sentiment, or felt he'd have a harder time controlling the fleets if he rose to power over Aokiji's corpse
edited 5th Jan '13 1:44:25 AM by Lightysnake
That is a good question Lightysnake that I wanted to ask always; if we don't qualify offscreen villainy, does that mean that offscreen kidness is not a disqualification?
It depends. In this case, the off screen kindness is only informed to us by others, and could be subject to a dozen explanations that we haven't heard. It's premature to say this was a redeeming trait by Akainu and cut him based on this.
Lost in Space
The point is that we don't typically let Informed Attributes count, but the bar is set so that a character must be proven to be a CM, not assumed to be a CM and then disqualified. If they are renowned for acts of kindness, that has to at least be taken into consideration even if they aren't seen in the work, because a person has to be "all bad" to be a CM. A Backstory wherein they were a good person before falling to evil would cause them to fail that test.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I wouldn't call "He let him go for ambiguous reasons" to be particularly renowned.
Also, I had heard in this thread that it's possible for a Fallen Hero to qualify if they fall hard enough. Even if they used to be a good person in the past, their present incarnation coud easily lack any redeeming features.
Lost in Space
The transformation must be so complete that there is no trace of the original person, to the point where it might as well be a different character. Fallen Hero played for sympathy is an absolute disqualification.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I agree with that. I consider, say, Deathwing a good example of that, or Orochimaru.
Star Wars has a few good ones I plan to do writeups for as well
edited 5th Jan '13 10:25:47 AM by Lightysnake
On Fallen Hero monsters..... Naruto's got Tobi. aka Obito.
If he still qualifies, Galbatorix (Inheritance Cycle) is also a Fallen Hero.
I think tobi qualifies as of now, but...well, Kishimoto effing loves Redemption Equals Death, so...wait and see how that goes.
IIRC, the current ruling on Tobi is waiting until the current arc ends before making a judgment.
edited 5th Jan '13 11:56:42 AM by lrrose
On Galbatorix, we discussed him several times - first it was keep (enough onscreen villainy), then cut (Well-Intentioned Extremist?).
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
If nobody objects, I'll continue the Star Wars writeups shortly. If anyone has commentary on the Hellblazer or Nihilus and Odion examples, let me know
I can hardly ever imagine a Fallen Hero becoming a CM.
I have no idea why. Some people fall and keep going, or lose any altruistic traits they ever had.
Griffith is here for all your needs. His fate is really pitiful and suffered a lot during the story itself, but all the things he did afterwards pushed him beyond the threshold of evil, with no room left for pity.
edited 5th Jan '13 1:19:47 PM by lu127
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
I'll let Iaculus's post speak for me on this:
''Folks like Akainu are basically just propping up a tyrannical dictatorship. Believing themselves to be doing the right thing doesn't make them Well Intentioned Extremists, but rather delusionally psychotic.
For instance, if Akainu was committing horrible acts because he really liked the ideology of the nice, egalitarian society he was living in and wanted to keep it nice and egalitarian, he'd be a Well-Intentioned Extremist. As is, the World Government is a ghastly, bigoted dictatorship, and Akainu likes it just as it is. It's hard for the audience to sympathise with his goals.
Also, the extents that he goes to cannot be explained by altruistic motives alone. There's some serious sadism in there, too.''
edited 4th Jan '13 9:22:49 PM by Lightysnake