Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Arty Morty
Goku Black
Moriarty
"The Juice is Loose."
Sure to Moriarty.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Cross-wired freak
Yea to Moriarty. Anyone mind if I kick off Castlevania Nocturne now?
"The Juice is Loose."
I don't mind Lighty.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Goku Black
Sure. Let's go.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Not the Eye
Okay by me
Okay, so:
What's the work?
Castlevania: Nocturne is the latest iteration of Castlevania on Netflix. Set centuries after the original ended, Nocturne follows Richter Belmont, the last scion of the Belmont clan during the French Revolution.
And our candidate? Olrox.
Who is Olrox?
A suave, impeccably dressed vampire given the glow up of all glow ups, Olrox is a centuries-old vampire from the Americans. Originally an Aztec, Olrox watched Europeans arrive and destroy his homeland where he was presumably turned. Olrox existed in the Americas for centuries after until the 1700s when he met a Mohican man. This man preached for revolution and freedom, who wanted a better world for everyone and fought for the American Revolution to create a better world. Olrox fell deeply in love with him and turned him into a vampire so they could be together.
Unfortunately, his lover was found and killed by Julia Belmont who was in the vampire killing business. Olrox was devastate and vowed revenge. One night, before Julia and her son Richter, could leave the Americas, Olrox ambushed them near the dock and engaged Julia. Olrox ended up outmatched in human form, but upon Richter impulsively interfering, Olrox involved him in the fight to force Julia to fall off her game and proceeded to impale her. Walking over to Richter, Olrox coldly informed "Little Boy Belmont" he understood how he felt. "your mama took someone from me I loved. Just as much as you loved her. So she had to die. I could kill you, too. And I will. One day."
And Olrox departed, leaving Richter to leave for France alone. Years later, Olrox is invited to the vampire court of France where the Vampire Messiah, Erzsebet Bathory, is making landfall. Olrox learns that the local Abbot is allied with the vampires and is a Devil Forgemaster creating Night Creatures for them. Which he remarks on with a snarky "Well. Well. Glory be to God." Olrox grows extremely wary of the current court, not helped when he meets Mizrak, the Abbot's warrior right hand and the two quickly become lovers. When Mizrak calls Olrox on turning his old lover without full consent, and asks if Olrox would do the same, Olrox's response? "Of course not, Mizrak. I'm not in love with you."
Olrox appears to Richter and feeds him information to sabotage Bathory's operation, while keeping himself out of danger. He does this a few times, warning the heroes of what's going on while skirting any consequences himself. When the Abbot intends to sacrifice his own daughter to seal his alliance with Bathory, a horrified Mizrak joins the heroes. Olrox attacks the vampires to protect Mizrak but when Bathory arrives, he spirits mizrak away against his will.
Mizrak breaks from Olrox and angrily calls him out on trying to play both sides while refusing to commit before rushing back to join the fight. Prompting a saddened Olrox to turn and walk away, clearly devastated by the potential of losing the man.
Mitigating issues?
Olrox has plotting down. From the start, he engages Julia in a duel and when she turns out to have the better of him in human form, he assumes his serpent/Coatl form and...promptly targets Richter to force Julia to protect him and give him a leg up to completely disable her.
When he disagrees with Bathory, Olrox plays the heroes to oppose her as well, and joins the fight at the opportune time. He's extremely manipulative, to say the least. And very good at what he does.
Olrox is a delight on screen. He's charismatic, snarky, brilliant, intelligence and soulful at times. He genuinely supports his dead lover's ideals and disapproves heavily of Bathory's monstrosity.
He is, however, not a good person. Olrox even if he kills Julia in revenge, still kills her in front of her son without remorse and coldly tells Richter he'll kill him one day as well before presumably not wanting to murder a child. His manipulative nature is called out by Mizrak who loathes how Olrox is willing to leave the heroes to die against Bathory while only saving Mizrak and refusing to fight for what he knows is right. It truly seems to get to Olrox as well. But Olrox despises things like slavery, wanton murder, and is clearly deeply affected by the centuries of persecution and oppression he's witnessed. He alludes to killing other vampire hunters beyond Julia, and he does, despite his protestations, care deeply for Mizrak. His dead lover? It is also indicated Olrox turned him into a vampire without full consent out of selfishness and he gets very testy when Mizrak brings this up.
Also as a vampire, Olrox isn't immune from preying on innocent people. Though his feeding habits are choosy. He kills a random noble in one scene, bypassing a poor beggar in the process. His explanation? "I prefer my blood blue," so at least he makes an effort to only target the upper classes he views as de facto oppressive. As opposed to Bathory who delights in torturing innocents.
Conclusion?
An easy, easy yes.
Not the Eye
A delighted yes to Olrox - Scraggle once mentioned the canonical novel that takes place after Dawn of Sorrow (and is an example of No Export for You of course) may have Olrox reach MB status as well. Regardless, I'm very much looking forward to more of Olrox, this show's Isaac.
And yes to Moriarty once more as well.
Goku Black
Olrox
So first version of count orlok to count?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Big yes for Olrox there!
"The Juice is Loose."
Ultimate Moral Compass
Crappy Comedy Moriarty and Olrox, knew he would count from his introduction alone
Barb / Temporary Kylo
to Gordon and Orlox.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Okay, so regarding Zora, I remembered one important detail I missed while rewatching the series... in the end, she doesn't actually get the Arsene Amulet, as Ramsey swaps it with a duplicate he creates with his own epithet.
Falling for a trick like that might count as a knock against her magnificence... I don't think it's necessarily enough to disqualify her, though, as Ramsey is an experienced Con Artist, so falling for his trickery in the heat of combat is not the worst embarrassment, and she still has the cool factor of her own creative epithet usage and Scarily Competent Tracker skills which I feel makes up for it.
to Moriarty and Olrox.
Caesar
Yes to Moriarty and Olrox!
Got a few from our bud Lighty to discuss, starting with:
What's the work?
More Than a Monster is the latest anthology series by Grendel Press, telling stories of creatures that are far more than typical movie monsters. Today we discuss the delightful "The Sacrifices For Our Children", all about a mother's love...
Who is Sara? What makes her a candidate?
- Sara Tano exists by day as a computer programmer at a prestigious business, maintaining a guise of friendly professionalism to all around her. But behind the scenes, she is a Jorōgumo, aka a type of Japanese demon known as yokai, who masks a spider form that she has used for many years to feast on the life of others and sustain her own. Sara has often picked prime victims in the form of aggressive, sex-driven men who she can easily lure back to her home to be bitten, paralyzed, and consumed—and though in her youth she sometimes indulged in a bit of cruelty, age has mellowed Sara, and she has come to respect humans enough to make their deaths as painless as possible during her feedings.
- Having recently given birth to her beloved daughter Akari, Sara has raised her to be a predator like herself, and the story revolves around Sara's usual luring of a hapless victim to her home...with the notable change that this time, it is for her daughter's first true meal. Sara walks Akari through the feeding process and encourages her to end victims' suffering quickly and efficiently, ending the story by embracing her daughter in bed after her "snack" and promising to love her no matter the usual mother-daughter fallouts they're sure to have.
Is she magnificent?
Yessir, she's been masquerading as a normal human with a nice job for years, all while actually being a demon and eater of humans. She routinely lures people to their deaths with her charm and she's an absolutely devoted mother to Akari who just wants the best for her kid.
Is she a bitch?
She eats humans on the regular. Yeah. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
But she always goes out of her way to put pragmatism and efficiency over cruelty, and she respects even the shittiest of humans as other living beings whose deaths should be a necessity and not a sadistic delight.
Edited by Ravok on Oct 6th 2023 at 1:34:44 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
"The Juice is Loose."
to sexy Olrox.
Not the Eye
Ultimate Moral Compass
Sara
To Sera, Olrex, and yet another Moriarty
Edited by LarryT on Oct 6th 2023 at 2:35:44 AM
Silly as hell but I'm excited to get one for the actor. Back to Holmes & Watson, the Greater-Scope Villain to the Big Bad already listed.
What's Moriarty doing here?
"The master of half that is evil and all that goes undetected" in London, Holmes' Arch-Enemy as always and the only man capable of matching wits with him, after a longstanding feud in which newspapers even note he's outsmarted the brilliant detective, the criminal mastermind is brought in for trial. However, they have no evidence against him in his latest murder, so the judge winds up stalling the trial while Holmes prepares his grand entrance, attacked by bees sent by one of the professor's minions. To everyone's surprise, when Holmes finally does arrive, he declares the Moriarty standing trial a body double, while the real one has already fled to the US.
After the villain is dealt with, Moriarty seems to have gotten away with everything himself, though the film ends with Holmes and Watson delivering a message to him letting him know they're hunting for him, then disappearing into a crowd at a bar while Moriarty looks for them, setting up a Sequel Hook shitty performance meant went nowhere.
Actions and personality?
It's mostly communicated to us through newspaper headlines but he's the same genius as always, matches wits with Holmes as a Diabolical Mastermind and sets up a daring escape, with only Holmes himself being able to track him down in the end.
Mitigating factors?
He's only in the film himself at the end but his presence and success speak for themselves.
Verdict?
Yes.