Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Goku Black
Uh not really the mcu wiki has kind of a weird issues before when they declared Hellstorm an mcu series despite word of God saying it's not for one. Wikis can be biased Is what I'm saying.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Ultimate Lifeform
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Exactly. I think relying too hard on the wiki can cause people who would be easy keepers to be overlooked because of theorized redeeming qualities that are mistakenly posted as fact. Alternatively it can be misinterpreted as being redeeming when the quality simply gives them depth to avoid them being a Flat Character.
TL;DR, the fan wikis are great... But they will always be inferior sources to the actual material.
Edited by ForgoLight on Jul 3rd 2023 at 8:59:21 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
for Videogame Blofeld
for Archpriestess
Abstaining on the Mandarin, whoever he may be.
I get it: This is a prequel to Iron Man 3. So it’s supposed to be the Big Bad of that movie. And nuking a city makes more sense for Killian than Wenwu. But the comic was clearly written under the assumption that Tony would fight the real deal and not a guy pretending to be him. And the guy in the robe being Trevor makes even less sense to me because he was just an actor who didn’t know that any of this was real. So it’s one big continuity hick-up and I feel I can’t up vote him in good fate.
Edited by NTG on Jul 3rd 2023 at 9:02:14 AM
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Plus, there's also the matter that the crimes utilized do not exactly fit with the Wenwu we see.
Killian hijacks the name Ten Rings and creates the Mandarin for Trevor, which Wenwu chuckles about as thinking someone gave him the name of "a chicken dish" and "an orange."
Also, that aside? I got my first of two Blueberries ready!
Who is Pedro Armendariz?
The swaggering, smug governor of Sonora in Mexico and the Greater-Scope Villain of the first arc of the comic. Armendariz's ultimate goal is to seize control of Mexico as its President (actually dictator) and has a plan to do it. See, Armendariz wants to be a conqueror and recover the lost Mexican territory. Texas especially. To that end, Armendariz is hijacking the war between the Natives and the US.
Despite Mexico not even being involved, Armendariz is arming the Natives through Lone Eagle to prolong the conflict and foster a bloodier war. Upon encountering Blueberry, he summarily orders him and his comrades hanged. Blueberry escapes, but with knowledge of Armendariz's plan.
Armendariz proceeds to supply Lone Eagle to fuel his slaughter, and with so many Americas dead, he can use the Natives as his personal army to slaughter civilians and drive them out of Texas while using the united Navajo and Apache to lead his own rebellion from Sonora and crush Mexico to take it over.
Hoarding a host of weapons to supply to Lone Eagle, he boasts of this to Blueberry who leads an operation to sabotage and destroy them. A panicked Armendariz leads his forces to try to stop them, which results in Blueberry trapping him down the mine with lit dynamite. The end result is the dynamite going off next to barrels of gunpowder, taking Armendariz with it.
Mitigating issues?'
Um, no. Not at all. The guy is a swaggering, corrupt sociopath with no qualities beyond ambition and greed who's manufacturing a horrifically bloody war to massacre enough people so he can ride the tide to power.
Conclusion?
Easy keep.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Pedro
The Ultimate Lifeform
Goku Black
pedro
The Moron
I've said everything I have to say about my actual viewpoint but basically saying that the MCU Wiki is inherently trustworthy is kinda laughable. They're just as fallible as anyone here, and arguing that they're using more "insider" information kinda defeats the purpose of the debate when everything I'm arguing comes from within the lore as canon presents it.
I'm not gonna lie, at this point I'm just tired of being told things like there's "zero indication" it could be right when I've explained my logic multiple times and effectively having to argue against strangers from another wiki who aren't even here, so if you want to downvote, please do so, there will be no arguments from me, but I'm just stepping out of the argument at this point. Vote how you like - upvotes, downvotes, or abstains, I'm just glad to have discussed it!
Edit: An EP was posted as I was writing this, so yes to Pedro!
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jul 3rd 2023 at 12:05:03 PM
for Pedro Armendariz
okay, and my only other Blueberry: Steelfingers
who is Steelfingers?
Jethro "Steelfingers" Diamond is a deadly, dapper-dressed desperado desiring destruction and profit (say that five times fast).Initially employed by Central Pacific to disrupt the Union Pacific railroad, Steelfingers' only real loyalty is to himself. The local town is a new hub where Steelfingers has made a name for himself with his gang. A big train is coming through town, loaded with money and Steelfingers (named such for his metal hand) wants it.
So Blueberry is in town to negotiate with the Sioux, namely Chief Sitting Bull and Chief Red cloud. Steelfingers is secretly committing murders and killing buffalo to start a war to disrupt the railroad. When Blueberry meets with the chiefs, Steelfingers guns down a host of natives to make Blueberry look like a traitor, leaves some prisoners behind for the Sioux to scalp as scapegoats and then goes to the Sioux as a "friend" to manipulate them into slaughtering everyone on the train so he can collect 200,000 bucks and promises to buy the rifles for the Sioux.
Unfortunately for Steelfingers, he rather underestimates how smart Sitting Bull really is and keeps up stoking the flames of war, but trying to be repeatedly self serving twigs Sitting Bull's suspicions. After basically trying to kickstart a war, his plan is to skip town with the money and leave the Natives to be massacred. He also poisons his gang to not share the profits, save for one last man who tries to betray him. Surprise, Steelfingers saw it coming and shoots him dead, presumably having planned on that anyway.
This, however, is the last straw. When Sitting Bull finds the men dead he leads a war party to hunt Steelfingers down, who tries to feebly explain that he was just going to get weapons for them. Sitting Bull kills him in a duel offscreen, returning with his metal hand as a trophy.
Mitigating issues?
For one jackass corporate saboteur turned bandit, Steelfingers is bad. Starting another fucking race war, lots of death. All for his own profit? Plus constantly betraying and killing people? I think we have a decent contender here.
Conclusion?
A keeper.
Not the Eye
to Pedro and Steelfingers
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jul 3rd 2023 at 9:19:24 AM
Goku Black
Steelfingers
for Steelfingers. Funny that this EP came out shortly after Goldfinger's.
Just out of curiosity I would like to hear more about the heinous standard of the comic series. Also Lone Eagle doesn't count?
Goku Black
He does. scraggle did him already
First? Gonna call Dragon Prince S5.
Second: Blueberry is 28 volumes There's a lot of baddies who don't keep. Like Bascom, a racist who wants to slaughter a native village is eclipsed by Armendariz, Lone Eagle, Steelfingers and the last upcoming villain.
Essentially to even get on the list? You have to be one hell of a serial killer or try to kick off a violent race war. Only four people do that, and honestly it's looking like Prosit von Luckner needs to go.
Thanks for telling me. Didn’t saw that EP.
Okay, so it’s one of these works with a really high heinous standard. Got it. 
Yes to the Blueberry stuff and I'm totally good for Killian there as well!
I know Wikis aren't always right, but it's been 10 years. If there was more indications that it was Killian than Wenwu, I think someone would have corrected it by then.
Please, stop with the "Wenwu doesn't like the name "Mandarin"" argument. Again, it was a retcon from Phase Four. In Phase Two, the true leader of the Ten Rings was indeed called "Mandarin", with his henchman even saying to Trevor "You took his name, and now he wants it back!" in All Hail The King. It doesn't prove at all that it's not Wenwu, if anything it's more of a proof that it can't be Killian since he was never called "Mandarin" by his henchmen (and neither was Trevor when he wasn't filming his scenes, which obviously wasn't the case here). It's just a case of Early-Installment Weirdness, nothing more.
I don't think we can just say "this must be Wenwu" and ignore Wenwu's entire characterization.
The Ultimate Lifeform
But... If it's a retcon, it takes precedence... That's the definition of a retcon for Pete's sake!
Oh and to Steelfingers!
Edited by ForgoLight on Jul 3rd 2023 at 9:37:50 AM
"Us weirdos have to stick together!"
Not the Eye
Yes it is Retcon, but just because we never see henchmen call him that in movie dosen’t mean that Killian didn’t use name. And what we get from comic seems point it being him, Retcon that Wenwu dosen’t use name only strengens it.
Edited by EmperorGeode on Jul 3rd 2023 at 9:42:36 AM
Blueberry duo
Mimic, regardless of it being a retcon, retcons take precedence over what was earlier established, that's the whole point of a retcon, and every part of the comic guy's plan lines up with Killian's goal and nothing like Wenwu's, seriously, the idea of that it's definitely Wenwu there is built on so much shaking evidence than just saying it's Killian
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Hey guys, my 007 Legends candidates have not been added to pending. I'm not usually the one who adds them and I was just wondering.
Anyone can add to the pending
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
No, in Shang Chi, the real leader of the 10 rings Wenwu laughs at the name Mandarin. That movie makes it clear he's being running it for centuries and mocks the name.
The MCU wiki is a fan wiki just like TV tropes, they can also get information wrong
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her