Complete Monster Cleanup

It is mostly an argument of the whole "Exceptionalism" criteria. I mean the guy is a terrible piece of shit human being. But never throughout the film did I really get the vibe he stood out as exceptionally nasty in comparison to the numerous over nazis both in fiction and real life.

And who are you comparing him to? Specifically?

I don't see him failing the HS since he's "just another Nazi" he's the only one in the movie shown going to such cruel lengths and the idea that his behavior is standard is basically seems to be "there were other concentration camp leaders" but they weren't shown in the movie, so I don't see them disqualifying him.

Ordeaux that logic would be basically disqualifying most Nazi candidates since the horrors of the holocaust happened so the instigators of that exist within the world's universe.

We don’t even need that argument. Wagner was bad by Nazi standards

Nobody in specific, maybe except for the various portrayals of very high-ranking ones like Hitler, Himmler, Reinhard, Eichmann to name a few. I am more talking about how generally nazis are portrayed in media.

I am not advocating cutting all or even most of them but there is a certain level of things you expect from certain types of villains. It is the reason we don't approve slasher villains with only a few kills or supervillains that only destroy a few buildings, it is what the audience expects of them.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 23rd 2022 at 10:46:23 AM

How many Nazis shoot babies on screen, or force 13 condemned prisoners to pick someone to die with them? While running an extermination camp?

I've not seen the movie, but looking at the writeup, Wagner seems to sadistically go FAR beyond what his job requires.

Slashers and Nazis are two different things.

“I have a feeling the reason this guy got approved is that he is the only major nazi we see on screen”

^That is sufficient IMO, because it gives him visibility. Essentially putting a face to the atrocities.

Okay I did some further digging into Babidi.

There is a line of dialogue in the anime after he almost got killed by Piccolo, where he states that he had desired to use Buu to conquer and rule the universe, which is exactly what Bibidi tried to do.

Also, the reason why Babidi is restricted to Earth is because Vegeta destroyed his ship.

Edited by Snowy66 on Dec 23rd 2022 at 11:00:37 AM

Well, I guess I am the only one that feels this way. Well, it's fine at the very least this gives me a better idea of how exactly we treat these kinds of cases as I wasn't fully sure.

Keep the Nazi guy. I really don't think we need to be doing things like having to make sure these are particularly bad Nazis compared to other media portrayals or history. If they are the worst in the work they are the worse in the work.

This, basically. If the character is bad enough by the standards of the work, the character is bad enough. Using IRL comparisons and Fridge Logic isn't something we do when evaluating so I say full keep to Wagner.

I'm interested in hearing more on Babidi/Bibidi for sure, as well

Alright here's another guy I'm concerned about: SCP 4666. Here's his writeup:

• SCP-4666, also known as "The Yule Man", is a Pagan Humanoid Abomination whose bloody legacy dates back to as early as the 1st century BC in Scandinavia. A prolific Serial Killer who only murders people during Christmas season, the Yule Man stalks families living in isolated regions around the world before invading their homes and ritualistically torturing the people inside in front of each other. After the torture has ended with the death of his victims, the Yule Man takes the youngest children to a cave filled with mud and bones, where they are forced to work for him in making toys from the remains of other children, until they are either devoured, starved to death or turned into toys themselves. When a little girl named Ekaterina Morozova couldn't work because she was sick, the Yule Man forced her friends to replace her eyes with painted pebbles, sew her mouth with tendons and remove her scalp to turn her into a living life-sized doll.

Now even with SCP's fucking bleak universe? This guy passes it easily so that isn't my issue. My issue is agency.

• Blue-and-Orange Morality: It usually torture-murders families and forces the youngest members of them into slavery somewhere, but sometimes it does absolutely nothing other than giving gifts (albeit incredibly macabre ones made out of people). The gift recipients presumably qualified as "nice" according to whatever criteria that it uses to judge the people that it stalks. It is currently unknown what constitutes as "naughty" or "nice".
• Don't You Like It?: In 15% of instances, SCP-4666 doesn't kidnap the child and torture their family in horrible ways, but instead gives them a "gift." These 4666-A instances include a drum made from human skin and tendons, a knife made from bone, a "doll" (see the Nightmare Fuel tab for further details on that) and a ball made from a head wrapped in even more human skin. All of these raw materials came from children, by the way.

It's noted that this is a repeat occurrence as 15% of his stalking end up with the macabre gifts with no one being harmed and he's noted to only appear within isolated rural areas so I can't chalk that up to Pragmatic Villainy. It still acts like Santa sometimes for seemingly no reason.

The other big thing that makes me weary of it is this. On the actual SCP page for SCP 5925, he says this in an interview

Now the word parts in the quote exchange links to SCP's 4666 page. And SCP 5925 is meant to Santa as in the real deal. From what I can tell, 4666 is 5925's evil side which would be fine with the torture and that but it's end goal is making gifts which it gives away despite the horrific nature of his crimes.

I'm aware SCP canon is funky as shit but it's not like SCP 106 where there's plenty of contradicting stories behind his past despite all we mostly see is a sadistic monster who clearly gets kicks out his actions. There's no note that, despite the torture and abuse, 4666 is doing this out of kicks? The family torture is noted to be "ritualistic in nature".

Thoughts for discussion?

Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 23rd 2022 at 7:01:50 PM

Keep Werger.

It seems it’s best to treat dragon ball duo as separate characters, While we are willing to accept word of god clariffication fact is that it seems like dr issac and Clones situation.

Cut Yule man.

That seems to be enough to cut the Yule Man for me.

Are we sure those "gifts" aren't just his sick sense of humor?

It's a split part from an entity which is meant to be Santa though and it's never heard communicating, with it only apparently telling the kids make the toys or die.

Edited by WetFlannels on Dec 23rd 2022 at 7:21:07 PM

Do we know who wrote the articles ? Are they by the same author ? With the SCP "canon" often falling into Depending on the Author, this may or not factor on Yule's standing.

Edit

After checking the site, SCP-4666 /The Yule Man was created by author "Hercules Rockefeller".

On the other side, SCP-5925 was written by author TheSlothSavant, who credits other authors in helping them - none of them being Hercules Rockefeller. So I'd say this has no bearing on the Yule Man.

Double Edit

There's no note that, despite the torture and abuse, 4666 is doing this out of kicks? The family torture is noted to be "ritualistic in nature".

I don't really see how that's a factor. The original article gives us a second hand account by one of the Yule Man's victims that describes it's sadism and cruelty.

Sure it doesn't expand on exactly why he's doing this, but it seems to me like they're invoking Nothing Is Scarier. The article doesn't treat the Yule Man's motivations as being important, just that he's a sadist with an Bad Santa gimic.

Edited by Beast on Dec 23rd 2022 at 11:59:48 AM

I don’t think there’s enough evidence to suggest Yule Man is SCP-5925’s Literal Split Personality.

I’ve always found Yule Man’s motives very foggy and unclear to discern if he’s actually sadistic, but that’s another matter entirely.

Okay yeah the repeated child abuse definitely adds more cruelty.

Edited by Snowy66 on Dec 23rd 2022 at 12:06:11 PM

I'd say the interview log does enough to show his cruelty.

Agent Kowalczyk: Where did he take you?

E.M.:… underground… [unknown word]… deep…

Agent Kowalczyk: Underground? You mean in a basement?

E.M.: Deep… everything earth and mud and ice. Bones everywhere. Everything cold. I can’t sleep because it’s too cold.

Agent Kowalczyk: Were there lots of other children there with you?

E.M.: Lots of children… lots of tunnels, lots of holes, but I can't see all. I can't see the other [unknown word]. Too dark. My hole is with René and Hekla and Sasha and Paul. We make the toys together.

Agent Kowalczyk: The toys?

'E.M.:; If you don’t make the toys, you don’t eat. Don’t stop making the toys, don’t fall asleep. Or he hurt you.

Agent Kowalczyk: He hurts you? How?

E.M.: He hit you, or he burn you… Or he bite off your fingers. Or he cook you on the fire in his room and eat you. He eat Philippe and Sally.

Agent Kowalczyk: What about you, how did… this… happen to you? Did he do this?

E.M.: (pauses) René and Hekla and Sasha and Paul do this. They have to.

Agent Kowalczyk:...why?

E.M.: I get sick. When you can’t make the toys, you become the toys.

Edited by Beast on Dec 23rd 2022 at 12:05:10 PM

EDIT: I'll wait on the Yule Man right now...I'll hear more and the child stuff is sick but the Blue-and-Orange Morality remains a concern to me.

"We expect a Nazi to be evil" is not nor has it ever been a reason to cut the archetype. "Exceptionalism" shouldn't matter when Wagner is the nastiest Nazi offscreen and a clear kick over the baseline.

I'm just going to be blunt about this, Ordeaux, do not try and invent new policies to cut your personal bugbears; if you find you are "the only one who feels this way," it's because you are abiding by criteria that literally doesn't exist on the wiki, or at least not in the way you seem to be interpreting it.

Edited by Scraggle on Dec 23rd 2022 at 1:09:54 PM

Okay leaning Yule man staying, just wow

Edited by EmperorGeode on Dec 23rd 2022 at 12:09:33 PM

Alright I'll accept the split thing but when he gives the "gifts" it's noted to be his same MO prior of scouting isolated homes and he doesn't lay a finger on the families at all.

I don't see how that's much of a factor; he's a supernatural Serial Killer with a Bad Santa streak. It seems to me when he gives "gifts" it's more of a morbid calling card. Especially since they're made from remains of his previous victims.

It's the kind of buffonary I'd see someone like Art the Clown pull if he suddenly got a Santa streak.

Edited by Beast on Dec 23rd 2022 at 12:19:07 PM