Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
I mean, sure she got passed up from the throne because she was female, but it's no different than your standard Ambition Is Evil villain in a monarchy who wants power they were passed over due to not being royal/not being the firstborn royal and it would be silly to disqualify all of those. Like Scar from The Lion King is listed as a CM and he is motivated by being passed over for being the second born, which is just as arbitrary a rule as being passed over for being female, monarchy is arbitrary in general. It might be different if she was shown in the story to suffer from misogynistic treatment in any other way than "didn't get the throne like 99.9 percent of people in Egypt" and was lashing out against that, which realistically she probably would have but from how posters are describing the movie it doesn't seem like that's really discussed.
Edited by molokai198 on Jun 7th 2023 at 5:34:03 AM
Eh...I'm going to give a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to keeping Ahmanet. We've already had a couple of characters voted down for being accidental non-CMs so it can go the other way.
Keep Ahmanet. I honestly don't think Anime!Light needs a separate entry even if he does count. Watching the scenes back, I feel like he's more afraid of dying and losing his position as an evil God than anything truly mitigating. If someone wants to do a separate writeup for Anime!Light by all means, but I REALLY don't see the point.
Edited by Klavice on Jun 7th 2023 at 3:02:38 AM
Politely, I’d like to say I think we’ve explored all we need to on discussing the anime incarnations of Light (and Father for that matter).
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I don't think anyone's arguing for a separate write-up. What I have tried to bring up is that TV Tropes assumes that a work sharing a page between anime & manga has the trope in both versions, unless indicated otherwise...
That said, I think the thread leans that anime Light counts anyway, so it's a moot point.
Goku Black
Anyway Keep Amhnant.
Might as well discuss The Flash (2014).
- Big Bad's Red Death and Cobalt blue have redeeming qualities and the former really Isnt heinous enough.
- Zoom and eobard return in the finale and don't do anything new. But nothing mitigating. So are still keepers.
- Bloodwork /Ramsey russo. The other of the five (maybe four) arc villains of this season gets much worse here. Planning to zomibfiy the multiverse on an attempt to create an immortal world for every one. That said nothing really indicates that his we'll intentioned goal is you not that. And his relationship with his deceased mother is a bit too complex to right off . So no go. On this thread at least....
- And finally the Final Boss. The negative speed force itself. Now that you'll be seeing show up on the thread. So buckle up.
So, I got a cut. This may be controversial:
From Sin City....Kevin.
So, Kevin is a silent murderer, and a serial killing cannibal who enjoys eating women with markedly sadistic tendencies. That said...I don't view Kevin's backstory as mitigating, but there are two issues, one stronger than the other.
- The first is when Roark Jr is at the Roark farm torturing the dancer Nancy, the hero John Hartigan arrives to save her. Kevin, despite being present, doesn't intervene (he's not shown watching, but he has hyper sensitive perception)....Word of God is Kevin legitimately loathes the pedophile rapist Roark Jr and was happy to leave him to his fate. Now, this is Word of God clarifying somethign in comic, but Kevin being VERY present at the scene where a loud fight is taking place and not making any move to help or being seen again indicates the Word of God is strong
- Second, and this's big...his relationship with Cardinal Roark. The Cardinal made him grow comfortable with his cannibalistic tendencies. We hear about this through the cardinal's POV, but...it seems really apparent the two of them genuinely loved one another. Cardinal Roark is aggrieved Kevin is dead and whispers all about how much they meant to one another, how Kevin spoke to him like an angel.
Now Cardinal Roark is fucking insane but his feelings for Kevin are entirely genuine, and it's meant to contrast how dysfunctional Senator Ethan Roark and Roark Jr treat one another (Senator Roark loves his son but Roark Jr despises his father).
Overall, I think keeping Kevin would be nothing more than a technicality and one I don't think I can agree with.
I absolutely agree with cutting Kevin. If Kevin weren't even shown in the story and Word of God hadn't mentioned it, it would be irrelevant. But because Kevin's shown in the comic while Hartigan is sneaking on the Farm, I see no reason to discount Word of God clarifying the meaning of his appearance in the story. So it's both Even Evil Has Standards since he despises the pedophilic Junior, and Pet the Dog since he doesn't interfere with Nancy or Hartigan after Junior's death. I also agree that the implication of Cardinal Roark's breakdown at the sight of Kevin's decapitated head, as well as his fond way of talking about their history together, is meant to convey Kevin cared about Cardinal Roark as a surrogate father as much as the Cardinal loved him as a son.
Edited by OccasionalExister on Jun 7th 2023 at 6:21:03 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Cut Kevin
"No running in the halls!"
Cut Kevin
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
The Ultimate Lifeform
Woagh
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Cut Kevin as we discussed.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Keep Ahmanet
Cut Kevin
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
The Draftsman of Doom
Based on what Lighty said, ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to keeping Kevin. Not even sure how there's any technical about those two points. They sound like they do effect how he's perceived.
Non-controversial keeper cut while poorly written one stays. It's a strange world we live in.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 7th 2023 at 6:59:13 AM
The Digital
Keep Ahmanet.
Cut Kevin.
And the idea that Cletus' bloodline is corrupted comes from Web of Venom: Carnage Born, where the corrupted Scorn preaches to a bunch of Knull cultists that the reason Cletus is so evil is because he was handpicked by Knull at-birth to be his apostle... though Donny Cates later clarified on Twitter that Scorn was obviously making this up.
Edited by Arawn999 on Jun 7th 2023 at 7:08:27 AM
RIP Toriyama
Snip Kevin.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
An Eldritch Troper
Cut Yagi and Kevin, keep Ahmanet.
Yes to 43's rewrite of Chaka.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Cut Kevin
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Keep Ahkman, cut Kev
IPP Wick Check created.
Cut Kevin
Approve of Chaka's rewrite
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Jun 7th 2023 at 8:42:21 PM
I would argue keepers like Unalaq and Vuk who were supposed to be apparent WIEs are such cold; harsh and crazy individuals that each being a WIE hardly feels like the intention if at all. Ahmanet seems like she's more nuanced than that. That said, it could just be that Sofia Boutella is doing the best she can with what she's got and/or the planned tragic element is hard to ignore even if it didn't come across that way.
Screw it.![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
to keeping. This isn't even under protest either because she's clearly too much of a petty savage to see whatever nuances were clearly intended no matter how hard I try (some things just can't be salvaged or made sense of).
It's like how on the opposite end of the problem Vortigern was supposed to be a pure evil Control Freak who even sacrificed both his own wife and daughter to maintain that power, but then is legit upset he had to. The character aspects clash and it's terrible writing, but it's hard to ignore regardless.
@Micheal Sad thing is writing a Tragic Villain is REALLY not that hard—and actually way easier than writing a CM for that reason. You look at Lotso and it's abundantly clear that as sympathetic as his backstory seemed at first, he unapologetically did everything he could to make everyone hate him by the end of the day to the point that it never really mattered.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 7th 2023 at 2:32:38 AM