To-do list:
- Since Plot Hole is now a Definition Only supertrope, wicks are now limited to references to the term. Any wicks that don't fit the new criteria must be moved to a subtrope if they fit; otherwise, they should be removed. Progress is being kept track of using the Plot Hole Wick Cleaning sandbox.
All of these things paint a very specific picture, which is that a Plot Hole is for an error that breaks pre-established continuity in such a way that it renders the outcome of the story impossible. By this logic, minor continuity errors would not count, as those are just basic mistakes and usually irrelevant to what's going on. It's more than just sloppy writing- it fundamentally contradicts the earlier information and leaves gaps in the narrative.
Why am I analyzing this so much? Well, my wick check shows that a lot of the usage is for things that don't qualify as being plotholes. They're continuity errors, inconsistency with character writing, examples where we just don't know how something happened, and worst of all, things that aren't even impossible. Don't take my word for it; check out the sandbox and the results below:
- Correct: 7/53 (~13)
- Continuity / Sloppy Writing in general: 17/53 (~32%)
- Character makes mistake / Inconsistent character writing: 6/53 (~11%)
- Not actually impossible: 7/53 (~13%)
- Missing information: 6/53 (~11%)
- ZCE/Unsortable: 10/53 (~19%)
I should acknowledge however that two examples were questioned when I brought the check up at the Meta Thread. Specifically, the The Keepers one and the Dinobot's Old Technology one, both of which were considered to be potentially too egregious of a mistake. I'll stand by where I sorted them, but I'll admit that there's some room for a gray area with where each entry belongs. I tried my best to be objective and unbiased with the placement. The "correct" folder ended up being for things that seemed like a lapse in genuine logic, things that couldn't be brushed off because they're a bit too egregious.
How do we fix this? That's the real question. I do have a cleanup thread
, but I think the misuse is so damn pervasive that there's a need to discuss things here instead. I'm just not sure what a proper solution would be. I don't think we should expand the definition to be about any inconsistency or illogical event, because that's just watering the concept down to the point of meaninglessness.
Maybe it should be subjective? The debate about some of the examples for the wick check and the fact that a Plot Hole is something fans usually have to notice and detect with the help of analysis and Fridge Logic rather than something blatantly apparent, and the fact that it's incredibly easy to spawn debates on whether or not something is impossible or totally possible under the circumstances... Yeah, it feels like it'd be easier to manage in YMMV.
Alternatively, the page becomes definition-only and the examples are moved elsewhere? The possibility of such a thing was discussed here, and I'm not opposed to it.
Either way, it'd take a serious amount of cleanup.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 29th 2022 at 5:50:13 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Edit: Never mind. Miscounted the days.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 1st 2022 at 7:20:25 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Edit: Spent way too long responding only to be ninja'd by an edit 
Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 1st 2022 at 8:21:28 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
OK, crowner's up since I misread the timestamps since i had just gotten out of bed.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
It happens I sometimes wake up at 6 AM and think it's 6 PM. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 1st 2022 at 8:23:43 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Voted in support of it becoming definition-only. It shouldn't be watered down for the misuse, or turned into a subjective trope because it has an objective definition and a use beyond TV Tropes.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
the Retromancer
Upon consideration, it occured to me that there are a few differences between Plot Hole and Ass Pull and these aren't as closely related. Still, during cleaning there will probably be examples that would fit that better.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of making this definition-only.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Pensive Wright
Is this up for discussion? Because I agree the page could use some moderation to keep it distinct from Ass Pull Fridge Logic and logical holes with Voodoo Shark explanations, but it's a true trope with some (relatively) objective examples, and I think a lot of people enjoy seeing notable examples here.
I'm helping!
It was up for discussion. You missed it.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
So, should we go through the on-page examples first?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Were there any that would have fit subtropes? I removed them because the page was made definition-only, and figured examples that fit subtropes would have already been listed there.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Ah, I didn't know they were removed already Guess we can just start the wicks then. I can't start yet 'cuz of Uncanny Valley tho
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Well, I put them in Sandbox.Plot Hole Examples in case they end up being needed, and copied the contents of the cut Literature and Western Animation subpages into their own sandboxes (linked to on the main example sandbox). I personally don't think it's necessary to do anything with them since this was made definition-only, but we can always cutlist these sandboxes later if necessary.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 5th 2022 at 3:08:46 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
What should I do with this example? It's one that's invoked in-universe.
- Discussed in RWBY Chibi episode 12 during their play of "Little Red Riding Hood", Blake questions why Weiss, who is playing the Woodsman, is even needed if Ruby/Red is already an amazing combatant with an awesome weapon. Ruby can only muster that they're "BFFs".
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I'm a little confused there, is that actually a part of the play that Red can fight and use a weapon or...?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
I noticed Plot Hole isn't listed on Definition-Only Pages. Should it be added?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
the Retromancer
Because nobody added it yet. What should it be called, "Industry Terminology"?
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
That might work.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm not sure why I forgot to index it as definition-only, but that's fixed. I put "Only exists to define the term" for now, but maybe a more specific reason could be put there later.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Could I change it to "Industry terminology"?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I went ahead and did that.
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Sorry, I completely forgot I posted that entry here. She creates a school stage play that's Little Red Riding Hood (the fairy tale doesn't exist in this world and the meta-joke is that the real-life audience knows she's a Little Red Fighting Hood character by design). So, Little Red is supposed to be the innocent damsel in distress who is rescued by the woodcutter, but instead of going along with that, Ruby unexpectedly whips out her real weapon (not a prop) to save herself thereby destroying the point of the woodcutter being in the story. The play breaks down with her fellow actors pointing out she's created a plot hole over the woodcutter's role just to Mary Sue her own character.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 16th 2022 at 7:57:57 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I pinned the opening post with a to-do list and made Plot Hole Wick Cleaning to keep track of which wicks we've already gone through, since we're not removing all of them.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Plot Hole is frequently misused. What should be done with it?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Whoops, missed that.
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