To-do list
- Move wicks to Simple Staff to the tropes listed on the disambig when applicable. Delete Zero-Context Example and anything that doesn't fit an existing trope.
- 38,(6)% (29/75) of wicks describe a staff that's used for melee combat
- 8% (6/75) of wicks describe other stick-like melee weapon
- 28% (21/75) of wicks are misused Magic Staff examples
- 16% (12/75) of wicks are unidentifiable ZCEsnote
- 9,(3)% (7/75) of wicks are unclear/vague
Additionally, at least 31 of 166 Main/ wicks (~18,6%) are misused, and actually refer to Magic Staff.
The main problem with the current definition is that it describes any stick used in melee as an example of this trope. Take, for example, the line "many double as symbols of status and thus feature elaborate headpieces". However, actual combat staves are not just clubs, and they should not have any headpieces, as it would mess with the balance. Meanwhile, most Magic Staves do have massive headpieces that are often used to hit the enemy with, should the staff be used in melee, adding to the confusion. Additionally, the page also mentions eskrima/kali sticks, that are also very different from staves.
In light of the above, I think that the reason for misuse is that the trope's definition is too wide. It just invites to shoehorn here any stick that's ever used to hit someone. In my opinion, it should be redefined to cover only staves used for martial arts. A good, albeit by no means universal, rule of thumb would be looking if the weapon has a defined top and bottom, as martial arts staves usually lack them. A rename may also be considered, given how the second paragraph contradicts the name with the line "not all staves need be so simple", and some examples include combinable and other hi-tech staves.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 27th 2022 at 8:46:34 AM
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to a split
EDIT: ![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
has a good point. Let's just yard/fold those and disambiguate.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:51:35 PM
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
(she/her)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think all three of those concepts can just be folded into the Weapon Of Choice split or yarded. I don't think there's enough tropes with context to split those off (if they are tropable on their own).
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Oh, true.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Let's see if we're renaming Simple Staff for now.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
I like this
idea, so that's something to note ifever the trope is kept or not.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Macron's post covers why I didn't include it in the current crowner.
the Retromancer
Which I forgot to say that I also agree on.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
to a rename and redefining it as martial artists' weapon.
She / Her
Renaming it (though I voted sometime earlier today).
If it's not renamed, it's cut and examples are moved, right?
Momentum's going to Rename, and I've got suggestions, so gonna post them:
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
the Retromancer
Sounds too similar to clubs in general in my opinion. A staff is distinguished by having special heads, like canes?
Or is it a matter of length? Or just wording??
Being generally a consistent diameter throughout??
Edited by Malady on Jul 4th 2022 at 9:30:00 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
(she/her)
We can have a definition crowner before we do the rename crowner, right? Since "staff as a melee weapon" and "martial artists who use staves as their weapon of a choice" are two different concepts and we can't just go with alt names for "staff as a melee weapon" because not all of think that's a tropeworthy concept.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 5th 2022 at 1:28:48 PM
Macron's notes
Peeks from Under Rocks
Unlike a Magic Staff or a ceremonial object or symbol of authority, the sort of "simple" staff that would be expected to be carried by Martial Arts practitioners, etc. would have no headpiece. The point is that it's simple - just your hiking/travel staff that makes a handy weapon. Think "Quarterstaves" for the western, non-fantasy version.
Edited by underCoverSailsman on Jul 4th 2022 at 12:12:52 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I don't like that the crowner is to rename the trope, when we're still debating if we should even have the trope. I would rather have a crowner asking whether to rename or disambiguate.
Edited by Zuxtron on Jul 5th 2022 at 1:25:40 PM
the Retromancer
(she/her)
The crowner is only day old so maybe we can add a disambig option or would be better to start over and discuss the disambig idea more (if necessary) and then start a new crowner?
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 5th 2022 at 1:40:03 PM
Macron's notes
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I added a disambiguation option. Let's let the crowner run for two extra days to give it more time (so it'll be called on the 9th instead of the 7th).
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Just stoic wisdom.
If An Axe To Grind exists (axe as weapon), then I don't see why "staff as weapon" shouldn't.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
An Axe To Grind is on TNTRS, so it's a bad comparison.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 5th 2022 at 4:26:10 AM
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Just stoic wisdom.
Eh, as long as it's equal! Either both are tropeworthy or neither are, so if neither are, so be it.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
the Retromancer
Both are not. We're making an effort to change all Weapon Of Choice subtropes to "Specific archetype's weapon of choice is this weapon".
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
(she/her)
Yeah, just because a similar trope still exists doesn't mean there aren't any problems. That just means that we haven't gotten to it yet.
Even in the event that we do keep Simple Staff as a trope, we can still revisit the decision via TRS after some time has passed.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 5th 2022 at 4:36:23 AM
Macron's notes
Officially intimidated
Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of a rename. I didn't upvote or downvote the other option.
135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
Crown Description:
Consensus was to limit examples of Simple Staff to staves used for martial arts and rename the trope. What should the new name be?
I think a split is best here.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness