Wiki and Forum Policy - General Discussion

Yeah, I just turned night mode off and it's pink.

Looks more salmon to me.

Anyway now that this is (hopefully) over, is there any update on the PM situation and what we can say about the mods?

Yesterday septimus claimed it was due to difficulty typing on his phone. We never got an update. I would really appreciate one, especially since it's been asked several times.

I understand there's Necessarily Evil Zero-Approval Gambit master plan at play, but naturally, and evidently, it wasn't effective.

For the rest of the post I'm glad the problem is acknowledged and actions are promised.

Edited by Amonimus on Dec 22nd 2022 at 3:14:24 PM

I can't put it any better than Drag did, aside from adding that if taking a mental health vacation is something that could help you, then I support that for you, Fighteer. While I agree with everyone here that your presence as a mod is not what people are upset over, and that you're misunderstanding the point of what's happening here... I also think that some time away from the website would be good for you, and maybe it would allow you some extra introspection that you can't have when you're in the action and emotional.

Basically, I've never really had a problem with mod Fighteer. The Fighteer people have concerns over is Fighteer the person behind the mod badge and space avatar; the one who, acting as a normal troper, still tends to act inflammatory and hostile even when the situation doesn't call for it. But Fighteer the person will also benefit a lot from taking a break, even if it's not a permanent hiatus.

I have zero issue with Fighteer the person coming back to be a productive member of the community.

Fighteer is now retiring it seems so there probably isn't really much point in continuing to talk about this. I hope that things can end up working out once we get an official statement from the mods.

I appreciate this is Fighteer's last post on the thread and they're taking a break. And this is not aimed solely at Fighteer.

That said, I don't believe choosing a deliberately 'mean' tone is a constructive tactic for a mod on any site. I completely understand the temptation to do so, but I prefer (and am more reassured by) mods who present as calm, fair and measured when making the tough decisions (E.g. EB thread) or telling someone to knock it off. I don't want to read jokes, dismissiveness or snark when someone's ban is upheld.

Mods are already carrying the big sticks. They don't need to be tough or snarky to reinforce that when interacting with other users, because there's already a power imbalance there and [almost] every troper knows it.

Which also means that when someone does get bounced, everyone else reading the thread can hopefully see that they had a fair chance (or at least ‘enough rope') from the mod but squandered it, for example.

IMO, of course.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 12:20:56 PM

I know. It's just the need for closure, I guess. To say one last piece even if he's not coming back to see it.

All there is left to do is to wait for any official update from the other mods, I guess.

Exactly. Students can be obnoxious, but a teacher cannot respond in kind because it is unprofessional and an abuse of their power/position. The same goes for mods.

Edited by wisewillow on Dec 22nd 2022 at 4:21:29 AM

That was a much better post, and I only wish he had made it instead of that first one.

I appreciate Fighteer taking the much needed break, and hopefully it leads to a clearer head in the future. People have to understand though that as leaders and figureheads of the community, moderators often set the tone and so being mean and snarky engenders more of it in return. Firmness doesn't have to be rudeness.

To stick up for the mods, they are busy with the holiday season and probably want to release one well written statement.

Reading Fighteer's comment and taking it at face value you can be banned in PM if it violated the rules as if you posted it on the forums.

I will say one thing for Fighteer: I believe him when he says he's burnt out. If I was moderating this site actively for 12 years constantly with little breaks (which is what I assume happened) I'd probably be burnt out too. I wish him the best for his mental health break (something we all need at one point or another) and hope that when he comes back we can see a genuine change.

I wholeheartedly concur with the above.

I got burned out moderating a club discord for two years. I would lose it if I had to mod this site for twelve.

While I have my issues with the justification used by Fighteer (the comparison of "student vs teacher" works nicely), I will say that I think it is for the best health of all parties that he has chosen this break from the site, and I would be more than happy to one day welcome him back as a plain contributor and troper. I do still feel that as a moderator, he has burned too many bridges to return in that capacity, but I believe he could still be productive as an un-modded troper around the site.

I think this was a long, but necessary, discussion to have and I am grateful that most parties kept things calm and functioning. Good work.

It also sort of makes sense as the wiki was a much different place a decade ago and people were attacking the staff for all manner of things, from banning porn to enforcing formatting rules. Fighteer was always one of the main mods handling EB, so I know he probably developed that hard-ass moderation style to combat the way people were acting back then, because while I wasn't there I know that it was chaos.

That style doesn't really work nowadays though, and it just leads to the overall perception of Fighteer being a scary and hostile individual even if originally it was just him playing bad cop.

I will wait for official word as to what's happening. Fighteer may have the best intentions here. It also might help for their break to be assisted/enforced for an agreed period of time for example.

Eta: as Fighteer's action is voluntary it's also less than clear if they retain mod powers.

Edited by dcutter2 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 12:33:41 PM

For what it's worth, I hope he gets to a better place mentally and comes back to be a productive member of the site. I hope he can find the mental space from his vacation to do some self-reflection and come out better, just as he would expect from us if we misbehave.

I know you are not reading this Fighteer, but I am really glad you are taking a mental health break. It's a really good way to clear your head and focus your time on other things, which in the long run helps with everything, including TV Tropes. And I'm speaking from experience here when I say this by the way.

Some of you here who were active around 2020-2021 and saw me on the forums may remember what I was like around that time. Back then, I was obnoxious, snarky, prone to overreacting, and overall treated the site like a joke. The version of me who was active on TV Tropes back then often didn't think before he spoke, didn't seem to know what he was doing on this site, and overall was not plesant to be around. Reading my old posts is quite difficult because I'm so embarrassed of what I was like back then.

Eventually, around late September 2021, I blew up in an ATT when someone unilaterally reverted Hate Sink's description following its TRS, and I (of course) assumed it was done out of malice, when it was clearly done out of ignorance. I was bluntly told I had a problem with overreacting and taking things way too seriously, and at the time, like what was earlier said to this effect, it really hurt my ego to hear that. But I decided, rather than escalate and risk a suspension, I would take that advice and took a mental health break.

After almost quitting for good, I decided to come back around late November 2021, and found that the break really helped me a lot. I'm more cautious when I post, I don't just post whatever is on my mind, I try to be more rational and calm when I approach situations here, and overall I treat this site more seriously then I did before my hiatus.

Of course Fighteer being a moderator and my not being a moderator, along with not being around as long as Fighteer has (Fighteer's modded since 2010, and I've only had an account since 2019), makes his situation quite different than mine. (I was also dealing with COVID stress at the time too, which colored my situation a bit.) But I'm telling this story because I want to stress how even a short mental health break can be incredibly positive, and can help you re-evaluate how you approach things, on TV Tropes and elsewhere. Take as much time as you need Fighteer. Your mental health comes first.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Dec 22nd 2022 at 7:36:08 AM

The one thing that does make me concerned about is that this might motivate trolls to act more recklessly now that Fighteer is not around for a while. But that is a problem to deal with if/when it ends up happening.

Well, there are still moderators on the site, including a brand new and I believe great one who was promoted just earlier this week (congrats again, Twiddler!). We should still be fine in regards to keeping trolls in line

I agree with this. We don't expect judges to snark at convicts when they get sent to prison or worse, either. An air of professionalism helps reinforce the sense that justice is being done in a non-capricious and arbitrary fashion.

And yes, I know there are other inherent problems with this sort of image politics, but all the same, image is important to how people perceive and respond to the system.

There are other moderators handling things like trolls around the site, Fighteer wasn't the only one hard on those who needed it, he just is one of the few who extended that rudeness and harshness to relative innocents. I don't personally think the concern that removing a toxic personality could cause proliferation of trolls because said toxic personality played "bad cop" is really a necessary one, tbh.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 22nd 2022 at 4:36:19 AM

Speaking of Twiddler, I'm so sorry you had to deal with this so soon after ascending to modhood.