The Sociopath cleanup

With people adding characters like DW, absolutely misuse.

So this thread has been dead for over a week now, but any thoughts on this? This is Hoffman from the Saw franchise.

* The Sociopath: He seriously surpasses his mentor John Kramer on how many lines he's willing to cross. While the former had a moral lesson in mind with his doings and gave his victims a chance to survive, he makes his traps inescapable in the belief that murderers can't redeem themselves, being hypocritical in that statement while claiming so. His partner Amanda Young is a Broken Bird with standards, and was horrifyingly blackmailed by him simply because he didn't like her. He's also willing to murder people whom he worked with for over 20 years just to get away, as well as putting Detective Peter Strahm in an inescapable trap and blaming him for the murder he himself committed in Saw V. He finally crosses the Moral Event Horizon when he murders his mentor's ex-wife with a Reverse Bear Trap in Saw 3D. Luckily, justice was served to him as Lawrence, a secret apprentice of John's from the first movie, put him at his place and locked him in the infamous bathroom, in which he finally died.

Now, putting aside the fact that that entry is incredibly wordy, Hoffman was a godawful person with very little in the way of any redeeming qualities, but the kicker? His whole reason for being Jigsaw's apprentice is that the man he murdered killed his sister. Also, someone put The Sociopath under Jigsaw's tab, though noted that he actually loves Jill. I know we're not requiring characters to have all 5 characteristics on the checklist, but I do feel like at least some of those should be critical to what makes a sociopath, like maybe Lack of Empathy should tie in with lack of genuine affection?

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 24th 2020 at 10:49:08 AM

I think we should worry about the definition before we target examples.

For the most part, the long description should be removed, but the criteria itself...honestly I still find nothing wrong with it largely because how psychopathy is portrayed in the media tends to be "grandiose" like how sociopaths more often then not turn out to be dangerous killers and the like in media.

Lack of Empathy is a trope which has issues itself, so if that's going to be criteria for this—currently unclear which direction we're taking—that's going to cause its own problems.

Personally, I'd just like to clean up all the misused examples. I don't care to redefine it, because it's already pretty clearly defined. But if we have to, I'd say a good definition would be: a character defined by manipulative tendencies, an inability or limited ability to love or feel empathy, and pursues evil deeds entirely for their own gratification.

Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 28th 2020 at 1:56:04 PM

I'd be okay with not redefining it, the issue we're having is that we can't agree on how it's defined.

A redefinition is beyond necessary. The trope is a mess as is.

Well it got as bad as having an entry for D.W....

Which is a misuse issue, as DW wouldn't fit any definition.

So how would we diagnose misuse?

I'd be happy to compromise on a definition if each of you have one.

The thing is, settling on a definition is something that needs TRS- we can't do this without a large consensus.

Alright, posted in TRS.

Came here to bring up the examples from Dragon Ball and figure out which ones should be cut or kept.

• Commander Red: Could go either way for me.
• King Piccolo: Can this trope be applied to someone who is literally Made of Evil?
• Saiyans: I don't think this trope can be applied to an entire species. Cut.
• Vegeta: Last I checked, true sociopaths can't make a legitimate Heel–Face Turn. I cut Gaara for this very reason. The entry also doesn't elaborate on why Vegeta counts other than the fact that he used to be an asshole. Heavily leaning cut.
• Frieza: He might be too sadistic to count, but leaning pass.
• Cell: Heavily leaning pass, though the entry could use some work to elaborate on why he counts.
• Babidi: Could go either way, though leaning towards pass.
• Super Buu: Same as the above, though the entry needs to elaborate.
• Turles: Could go either way. Leaning cut.
• Frost: Honestly fits this trope better than Frieza in my opinion. Easy pass.
• Beerus: Seems like someone with a Blue-and-Orange Morality than a genuine sociopath.:
• Champa: Same as above.
• Zamasu and Goku Black: Seem more like narcissists than sociopaths, but I'm willing to give them a pass.
• Barry Kahn: Pass.
• Quitela: Entry doesn't elaborate. Other than that, could go either way.
• Broly: Could go either way.

Without a wick check, that thread’s not even getting opened.

Yeah, we need to prove the problem exists. Us discussing it isn't proof enough. For all we know, we're all wrong.

How do I do that?

See How to Do a Wick Check.

I'll take care of it later. Got other shit to do right now.

So any thoughts on the Dragon Ball examples?

We're still trying to come to an agreement on a definition before we return to cutting examples.

Well, I was looking at the film Valentine and wondering if there's a character or two who might count. If you're wondering, it isn't the killer played by David Boreanaz, since I think he loves and cares about Kate even with both identities he has. The character I’m looking at is Denise Richards' character Paige Prescott, who appears to be of the high-functioning, non-criminal sociopath mentioned in the write up for Mr. Huph.

1. Lack of Empathy. She's rather glib about rejecting Jeremy Melton in the present day while bringing him up as a potential suspect for the maggoty chocolate and when she and Kate learn that Dorothy (more on her later) lied about Jeremy assaulting her and that he's now coming for their heads, Paige's response is to tell Dorothy not to worry about the whole situation, that Jeremy surely wouldn't be capable of concocting a revenge plot. Not exactly remorseful about participating in a Frame-Up.
2. Consummate Liar and Manipulative Bitch. During the third act of the film, she and a man named Brian go upstairs. She gets him to take off his clothes first, then ties him to the bed, pours wax from a candle on his crotch, and leaves him there, tied up, in a house that shortly fills up with dead people.
3. Pathological need for stimulation. She apparently Really Gets Around, with Dorothy mentioning she's let men into her pants that she's known for less than an hour.
4. Shallow Affect. Outside of the friends group, she doesn't have a consistent relationship or emotional connection with anyone. She's not mentioned as having a job or anything.
5. Grandiose sense of self-worth. See Lack of Empathy as she blows off the death threats and isn't too worried about someone having a grudge against her. She apparently has very high standards about who she sleeps with, and well, see Brian. The only time she shows any sense of fear is when the killer is right on top of her and attacking her.

Thoughts from anyone else who's seen the film?

Edited by k410ren on Dec 10th 2022 at 9:11:21 AM

Hey, I'm finally back! And I just shared my case with TRS. I think I did a bit better this time around.

This project has now been temporarily moved to the Wick Check Project. All my examples so far can be found here. If anyone wants to add examples to the sandbox, please do.

Edited by Stellarvore on Dec 26th 2020 at 7:27:40 AM