Removing complaining in Star Wars subpages

There's also this from the same entry

Rey's solid victory over Kylo Ren in a sword duel, despite having been the first time she ever touched a lightsaber while Kylo had been explicitly training at it since his childhood, meets no clear explanation.

I've seen one You Tube video posit that mastery over the Force ties more to "belief" than actual training, if Empire is anything to go by. Also:

• I've seen some people say that this ties back to Maz telling Rey to "just let it in".
• Rey was actually pushed back quite a bit until that moment.

3: Kylo’s been shot in the stomach by an instakill weapon, and he survived to dominate most of the fight.

Do you think we could add TLJ to the idiot plot section? We have:

Rey becomes convinced Kylo can be redeemed for no reason

The First Order not immeditly ending the resitance when they were quite capable of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLqLQvTbo-Y

Holdo and Leia refusing to communicate with Poe

Finn and Rose not taking 2 mintues to park legally

Rose stopping Finn's sacrifice when it looked like he could've destroyed the canon

I agree that there isnt enough evidence for Rey's victory to be an Ass Pull. In addtion I'd remove a few more Ass Pulls:

"Leia using the Force to survive being blasted into a vacuum after bombers destroy the bridge of her ship. While it has already been established in canon that Force-users can survive in the vacuum of space, Leia had not been shown to have any Force abilities thus far and nowhere in canon is anyone able to propel themselves through empty space with the Force."

What Leia did was basically a long-range force pull. Kanan pulled off the same feat in Rebels and TROS would establish Leia had trained to the point she was nearly a Jedi Knight. And even before then, Luke stated in ROTJ that he would train Leia

"When Finn and Rose are imprisoned on Canto Bight while trying to find the legendary codebreaker that Maz told them, all hope seems lost. However, they get thrown into the same cell as a guy who knows how to break out of the prison, but for some reason didn't escape on his own until the good guys showed up (even although, judging by his looks and his clothing's, he had spent a long time in the cell), and more importantly, the guy in question also happens to have the exact same skills as the legendary codebreaker, which entail being able to infiltrate the First Order flagship and make it look easy."

Maz simply said her codebreaker was the only person she TRUSTED not the only person that could do it. Maz even said she would do it if she weren't busy.

"Captain Phasma's armor enabling her to completely No-Sell direct blaster fire. There's basically no precedent of a personal armor of any kind in the two Star Wars continuities that could pull such a stunt, not even the famed Mandalorian armor or even the force-fielded suits worn by Republic Commandos during the Clone Wars."

Beskar Armor has been shown to deflect blaster fire in "The Mandolorian" so this could be seen as the buff being established for the new continuity.

"Kylo Ren swiftly killing hyped-up, mysterious, extremely powerful Snoke two-thirds of the way through the movie. Both the previous and this film had established Snoke to be a Chessmaster with absolutely mighty Force powers who could submit both Kylo and Rey by lifting a finger, yet in order for his death to happen, he suddenly loses all the basic accuracy of his Force perception (in which he was even focusing that very moment) and fails to realize both Kylo's feelings of betrayal and his usage of the Force to direct the taken lightsaber towards Snoke. "

Force visions can be deceiving and people have misread them due to their hubris. For example, Palpatine thought victory was guaranteed in ROTJ because he foresaw "Skywalker turning" unaware it was ANAKIN Skywalker turning to the LIGHT

I'd also add a few:

Midiclorians and the Virgin Birth

R2-D2 flying

Anakin having a Padwan during the Clone Wars

Maul's survival

Han having enough precision to land at lightspeed in TFA

The Death Star's weakness being intentional in Rouge One

The Holdo Maneuver

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 14th 2022 at 11:11:58 AM

and : Those Ass Pull and Idiot Plot suggestions need more explanation for what makes them an example. And some of those might not even work: It's not clear enough either way if Finn's sacrifice really would've stopped the cannon or not.

And even then, we used this cleanup thread to remove the very examples you are suggesting. So I’d be against adding any of those examples, especially the Idiot Plot suggestion.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 17th 2022 at 9:35:18 AM

So where do I propose the addtions?

No, I mean you shouldn’t add them at all. We already had discussion on this stuff and determined that they don’t count as examples.

Do you mean my proposed addtions to Idiot Plot or Ass Pull? If anything my Ass Pull suggestions is making the hatred less skewed to a single era. Also what about the removals i suggested?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Feb 18th 2022 at 7:30:24 AM

For the Never Live it Down page we should remove the entry on Kallus as his murder of Tupa ultimatly was never adressed by the show making it a valid complaint

Edited by Mariofan99 on Mar 22nd 2022 at 6:09:08 AM

hello?

I wouldn't object to removing the NLID entry regarding Kallus.

Edited by gjjones on Apr 15th 2022 at 6:48:37 AM

Well I'm unable to edit the page so could somebody do that? Also entries any we should add?

I can't help but feel bothered by the Sequel Trilogy section in Star Wars. Almost every entry there ended with "the occurrence in the sequels still sucks because they undo the other trilogies and blah blah". At a quick glance, I don't see this sort of thing in any of the other sections...or other subpages for that matter.

The thing that really gets to me is the "Skywalker saga is now about Palpatines" bit. On the discussion thread, someone even claimed that Palpatine is the main character because... he's behind machinations that cause problems for the heroes across the years? I...just...what?

Plus it ignores the ending. Where Rey ultimately defeats Palpatine and rejects the Palpatine name in favor of...*Skywalker*

Edited by DoomTay on May 26th 2022 at 8:32:25 AM

This is a minor point from the What An Idiot! page, but should probably be changed for accuracy.

This is from the section under The Phantom Menace discussing how no-one bothered to free Shmi Skywalker from slavery after the Naboo Crisis was over:

Instead: They just leave Shmi on Tatooine, presumably without checking up on her even once and without any explanation given for why they do so. As a result, she eventually gets captured and killed, leading Anakin to brush the Dark Side and become more ambitious and grimly determined to prevent the deaths of those he loves, which leads to disastrous consequences in Revenge of the Sith.

While leaving poor Shmi in slavery for 10 years was stupid, it didn't directly cause her death. Shmi had already been freed by Cliegg Lars for some time when the Tuskens kidnapped her. The stupid part is that no-one had checked in on her in that time, resulting in Anakin's reunion with her being when she was moments from death.

Curious, are we allowed to use this thread to bring up complaining about Star Wars from elsewhere on the wiki, or is it just limited to franchise subpages? I just stumbled across an example that struck me as... let's say, less than convincing.

I'd guess it's about complains on all parts of the wiki? And if it'd be better to go in the main negativity thread, I'm sure someone could let you know.

On the Idiot Plot page for Star Wars, while locked, its first entry makes mention that the Empire never thought to look for Obi-Wan on Tatooine at any point. This has been retconned with the reveal in his Disney+ miniseries that there were attempts to find him.

Any thoughts on adding The Last Jedi back to the idiot plot page? We even have it as a trope on that film's YMMV page

From Audience-Alienating Ending

The Star Wars' Sequel Trilogy was already contentious among fans due to the Happy Ending Override it did to the Original Trilogy, but it was made even worse when The Rise of Skywalker begins by revealing out of nowhere that the entire reason the last two movies happened was that the original Big Bad, Emperor Palpatine, came Back from the Dead at some point (negating Anakin Skywalker's sacrifice at the end of the original trilogy) and had been manipulating the First Order from behind the scenes, possibly for years. On top of that the movie undoes several plot points from the controversial The Last Jedi in an attempt to appease the fans who didn't like it. Namely retconning Rey from being a nobody to being Palpatine's granddaughter which many felt undermined the previous film and its message. The end result was a film that a lot of people felt did nothing but undermine everything that came before it and ended on a very rushed and ambiguous And the Adventure Continues note that ruined the original trilogy's definitive, hard-fought Bittersweet Ending in favor of a vaguer and less satisfying resolution that fails to deliver any sort of decisive conclusion to the saga. Not helping matters is Lucasfilm and Disney deciding to focus on the High Republic prequel brand and the Post-Imperial era before The Force Awakens, with seemingly no plans to show or explain what happens after The Rise of Skywalker, angering fans who had hoped to see the next major phase in the saga instead and causing many to insist the saga still ends with Return of the Jedi.

At the very least, "negating Anakin Skywalker's sacrifice at the end of the original trilogy" is usually met with the counterpoint that his sacrifice was less about stopping Palpatine and more about saving Luke. Also, there is a bit of "fans hated this" that I see very little of anywhere else, and this bullet is probably the longest one on that article. It might help if we axe the bit about The High Republic. I don't think it's all that relevant here.

Another suggestion I had to think over, but, a lot of What An Idiot examples for the Star Wars prequel trilogy are the result of narrative decisions that are needed in order to achieve a Foregone Conclusion. Do you think those could be re-evaluated in the event a character making good decisions would get the same results as someone making bad decisions?

The BBC section for Star Wars Rebels needs to be cleaned up as there are instances of arguing with itself and focusing too much back and forth making it clear things were only added as the show progressed not revised. Also, Ezra's entry especially needs to be fixed as while he is a divisive character we have things weighed too much to the negative. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BaseBreakingCharacter/StarWarsRebels

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/NeverLiveItDown/StarWars

"Some people (Tumblr, predominately) aren't so quick to forgive Kallus after his characterization in "The Honorable Ones," never mind accept a possible redemption arc from him, mostly due to practically escorting Tua to her assassination while taunting her back in "The Siege of Lothal" (also not forgetting that he's burnt down Tarkintown, blockaded Ibaar, etc.). Most of the same people also think that the arc should've belonged to Tua or someone else that hasn't been already depicted as villainous as Kallus, although some have pointed out that this trope and arguments will likely be applied and addressed in-universe later on in Kallus's character arc."

This entry needs to be removed as ultimately his murder of Tua (and even Tua herself) was never brought up in the show after it occured

Another thing I might need to mention, but the What An Idiot stuff also discusses supposedly poor decisions made in the Senate scenes that enabled Sheev Palpatine's rise to power ... except since the Senate is in a fictional government, we don't know its rules like we do the rules of a real government, meaning we don't actually know what's a smart move and what's a dumb move. So trying to call Padme an idiot because she made a few mistakes that enabled his rise is probably not applicable (that and she had no idea he was evil). Since he is a Villain with Good Publicity, Sheev likely would have been nominated as Chancellor or given emergency powers regardless of who specifically was chosen to give him those things, and it could just be snarky fans trying to scapegoat people for making decisions with long term consequences. So there's a chance those may have to be removed as well, possibly.

Edited by 6f5e4d on Mar 19th 2023 at 12:43:35 PM

I know this is old, but it not being mentioned in the show again is exactly why this entry would count. There's no reason why an event would need to be brought up repeatedly in-universe for it to be NLID.

Edit: I know this was pulled because it's a full characterization example, but my point is that "not being mentioned again in universe" is irrelevant to NLID.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 19th 2023 at 3:52:10 PM