The New Trope Problem

No, I'm saying even "healthy" trope pages might not grow afterward. A trope could theoretically launch with over 100 wicks... and then remain completely stagnant for the rest of it's existence.

I'm referring to natural growth and the tropes being accepted and acknowledged and used by the rest of the wiki after launch, not just the amount of wicks on the page on the day of launch. Or, rather, that a healthy wick count is not the end all be all, and it's concerning to me when a legitimate trope with plenty of usage in media doesn't get used solely because it slipped under people's radar.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I think the trope with the fewest examples has to be Growing Into Their Paws, with a mere three (discounting the Real Life section), and only has two wicks that are not to tropes commenting upon its lack thereof (five wicks total).

However a trope could launch with that few examples across various different media is completely beyond me.

Edited by TheWhistleTropes on Dec 30th 2019 at 12:39:11 PM

she/her/they | wall | sandbox

Three is the absolute minimum a page requires to be launched, so I imagine that's how that happened. It should have gotten more, though.

I like the idea of some sort of new trope spotlight. Right now the closest thing we have is the "Most Recently Launched Article" thread, which isn't terrible, but doesn't really get a lot of attention. Having a sidebar with new tropes could work better.

I agree. Like I said, it almost feels like a competition at times to have my trope get enough time on the front-page to grow, competing against other people who also have tropes to launch on the same day, when this shouldn't have to be an issue.

Another thing we can do is enforce crosswicking a lot more than currently happens. While new tropes get crosswicked more often than not, new work pages don't get the same attention. While I usually go out of my way to crosswick pages I make (with the exception of one page I'm not done working on and so haven't crosswicked yet... man I really have to continue watching that series...), a lot of people don't. We should either do more work to make sure creators are properly crosswicking pages they create, or be willing to do the crosswicking work ourselves for pages that haven't yet been crosswicked.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

We could do a Long Term Projects thread on giving recognition to new tropes that need wicks.

Well, we have a thread to help clear out the backlog of Needs Wiki Magic Love, which is kinda similar...

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Hmmm...

Not what I was looking for. We should have a thread for adding wicks, not adding general Wiki Magic.

Still, that thread (and many other resources) are one way to help, but can we go over other options?

That's why the idea of a "new trope spotlight" and my idea of enforcing crosswicking better came up.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 30th 2019 at 3:30:16 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I thought we already enforced crosswicking. I remember the last few times I forgot to crosswick in a timely manner (which, admittedly, was years ago), I got a form-letter PM from a mod reminding me to do the work.

We try, but we don't do a great job. There are a ton of works pages made that don't have any real crosswicking done, save for what's necessary, like indexing and maybe one or two wicks on trope pages. More new work pages get added daily, and a lot of them slip under the radar, with nobody checking to see if the person actually crosswicked- at least, that's what I've noticed.

Even when it comes to tropes, a lot of people do the bare minimum necessary to get the page up to ~15 wicks, and then stop. While I know it takes a lot of time, people should be expected to crosswick has much as they possibly can, not just enough to not break the rules.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 30th 2019 at 5:53:11 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Exactly. I remember when somebody added so many comic book examples to Sisterhood Eliminates Creep after I finished cross-wicking. There are also the times when it takes several minutes to get down to the right letter for your trope, then the site freezes and you have to start over.

Overall, I think the issue at hand is self explanatory: Everybody expects the OP to do all the wicking, and as such nobody links to your page.

It might be rather small potatoes, but I've been trying to use recent launches for the Featured Trope.

Really? I didn't notice, but that's pretty neat.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Okay, I'm on the same page here. To measure that, I'm looking at the "Related to" tab and seeing how often the rest of the wiki links to it, compared to how long it has existed. If the observed growth is "healthy", that means the trope is growing at an expected rate. An "unhealthy" trope is growing too slowly.

---

Wicks on other pages are literally the best way for other people/editors to learn about existing tropes. If 100 wicks three years after launch does not represent healthy growth to you, then I want to know how much does. The numbers sound good to me, but I don't have an intuitive sense of why these numbers are right instead of higher/lower numbers.

---

I'm willing to listen to what the rate of growth should be, or why the Wick page (which measures links over time) is actually a metric for (X). Aside from that, what do you think about revamping Pages Needing Wicks? Maybe it should be policy to add tropes to that page of they don't have a "healthy" number of wicks?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding.

I'm not saying "100 wicks after 3 years isn't healthy growth", I'm saying "100 wicks after launch and then no more new wicks to follow isn't growth, period". Even if a page is in the healthy wick range when it launches, I wouldn't call it a healthy growth if it doesn't, well...grow any bigger after that. It's healthy, sure, but my concern is that these tropes get forgotten and ignored, not that they're literally starved for wicks.

I agree that if a trope manages to get around 100 wicks in three years after the trope is launched, it's healthy. The issue is that I'm not talking about wick count at all, I'm just talking about how they don't see any real use after they're officially launched, even if they should be used.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 30th 2019 at 9:46:59 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

A thought (and forgive me if this has been suggested—I may have missed or forgotten it in reading the thread):

What about posting new tropes to Ask The Tropers (or some similar page that might subsequently be created), asking the troper-population for usages of the tropes in question?

That way the new trope might benefit from the (presumably-)broader knowledge-base of a group of people in finding works-pages to add it to, and the work of giving the new trope such thought might help to cement its existence in at least that subset of tropers.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 31st 2019 at 4:43:14 PM

My Games & Writing

That sounds like a really good idea, though it might just be better suited for the actual Forums. ATT does a lot of things, do we really need another function for it? Honest Sincerity Mode with that question.

It's been on my mind a bit, too.

It's similar to new work pages that don't get much attention from others but tropes should be universal... sadly, new tropes aren't likely to be as popular as the old tropes of the legends.

There are some things that might help but it's probably only small things.

• Featured tropes. I know I'm happy when my launch gets the spotlight in the newest trope for a while, so I appreciate that new arrivals are put on featured tropes / tropes of the day, too. :-) I also like the idea that there could be more tropes on the display — let's say 5 latest tropes? It will probably dilute the attention, though.
• Bulletins. I have probably unreasonably high expectations of this new (or old-new) feature. I expect it'll bring new energy to projects and trope repair shop discussions and help with cross-wicking and de-wicking and bring attention to freshly launched tropes. As I said, I probably expect too much, but it could be a thing — like a newsletter posted weekly or once in a fortnight and it could mention what's new on the wiki, what needs help, what projects need more attention etc.
• Social media - fb, twitter, others... New tropes could be featured on the official social media accounts more prominently (provided they are in a good shape and there are things to share or discuss).
• I was also thinking of some special indexing for new tropes but we do have a list of launched articles already. Only it's hidden in TLP so it's only available to tropers who hang out there or look for it. Perhaps we could add another sub-index to Needs Wiki Magic Love? I'm sceptical about this one but I'm just brainstorming and it might be worth a shot.
• Image Pickin' and top-page-quote discussions — images and quotes are optional on trope pages but they are fairly popular. Images and quotes make the page look nicer and neater, and it helps with visibility; with these discussion, our community has a chance to get to know new tropes; though it shouldn't be mandatory.
• Subpages like laconic wiki or playing with wiki — those are parts of the projects already but mostly for problematic entries that need cleanup. Though playing with wiki has a discussion for general writing help and peer review, too.
• Posting on ATT is a similar idea, but ATT is often cluttered and used for catch-all problems and issues. It shouldn't be used to advertise new tropes or new TLP drafts... but on the other hand, it's probably the most widely read discussion, viewed by seasoned tropers and eager newbies alike. For example, if someone post a link to their TLP on ATT, it almost always gets new comments practically immediately...

---

• Cross-wicking — it's an issue. For tropes old and new. It's considered mandatory, but not enforced — and honestly I don't know what we could do to truly enforce it, because editing is a volunteer work. But it's a problem.

---

Take for example my very first trope which I launched in 2013: Language Barrier. It has 215 edits, but obviously not all of those edits are new examples. I don't remember exactly, but when it was launched, the number of wicks was probably somewhere between 30 and 50. Now it has over 467 wicks. About 70 appear to be wicks on trope pages, indexes, playing with wiki articles etc. Of those remaining 400 examples on work pages and character sheets — not many are cross-wicked to the trope page even though it really should be and it's kinda the point of this wiki.

---

Another example — I love English Rose trope and I try to A) maintain the page B) make sure there is no misuse on the trope page or on the work pages C) it's cross-wicked properly. English Rose is kinda niche tropes so there are not many examples but still — it's hard work and it takes forever.

I literally can't do this for all my launched tropes or for my favourite tropes. No matter how badly I'd like to.

Edited by XFllo on Jan 3rd 2020 at 11:50:24 AM

What does that mean? You are specifically refuting my definition and then not offering a new definition. Please explain what "healthy wick count" means because you refuse to use my definition.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Maybe instead of only featuring the absolute most recent trope, we should have a list? Maybe the top 5 most recent? That way, if a bunch of tropes are launched in quick succession, each one gets its place on the list.

she/her/they | wall | sandbox

Crazy, seriously, you are the only person talking about wick count. I'm talking about the trope not experiencing any sort of growth or use. It has nothing to do with whether or not the wick count is "healthy" or not. It has everything to do with whether or not the people of the wiki use the thing at all besides for the pages that were initially crosswicked.

I'll repeat this again. A trope can launch with a healthy amount of wicks and remain stagnant because the wiki doesn't know of it, and it's the stagnation that worries me. It's a problem that can occur regardless of how "healthy" the initial wick count is.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 31st 2019 at 12:58:02 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Maybe tropes aren't getting new examples because creators just don't use them, so there are no examples from new works? Indexes like Discredited Trope and Forgotten Trope exist for a reason. Now, I'm not saying old works or those that already have pages can't have examples, but trope examples are not an infinite resource, you can't make a new one when there isn't one out of thin air (I won't get an example of Food Pills from Leisure Suit Larry 6: Shape Up or Slip Out!, for instance, because it doesn't have them).

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Depends; I know all of my launched tropes are primarily examples from modern works, because that's what I'm familiar with. Same with most other drafts on the TLP. These are tropes that actually appear pretty often in newer (and older) works, so they should be used more.

But if a trope is considered discredited, then yeah, it not getting used is a natural consequence.

...And obviously if a work doesn't use the trope you wouldn't use that trope in describing it. Not even sure what point you're trying to make there. I wouldn't add The Dragon to Drake & Josh, but The Dragon isn't discredited...

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 31st 2019 at 1:19:31 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I probably brought that up because you expect tropes to keep growing, even when examples are unavailable. If there are no legit examples to be found, then they can't be added. Therefore, the trope will be unable to grow and there's no point in creating untrue artificial examples. Same with works. Of course, if there actually are examples out there (as you mention your tropes having potential for growth), then I'm not sure. Maybe people should make example drives and tropes which have stagnated but seem to have potential should be brought to people's attention with something like "please find me 10 examples of my trope as I think they exist", but I have no clue where that would go. Alternatively, a list of tropes which haven't been edited in over a year?

Edited by Piterpicher on Dec 31st 2019 at 8:11:55 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Well, that's the thing: while a lot of tropes aren't growing because we collected every possible example, that's not true with most of them. I tend to assume a trope is relatively commonplace unless I have a reason to believe it isn't, so I go by the assumption most tropes would see use if people were aware of them being launched.

I like the "list of untouched tropes" idea.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness