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Jaybie the ideamancer from A flurry of ideas and emotion Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
the ideamancer
#1: Dec 1st 2019 at 10:47:59 AM

I have this idea in my original work about a fantasy world starting a group of indigenous people called Maja. The idea is to have a subplot about the Maja dealing with the appropriation of the holy book, the Book of Maja by settlers.

Any advice how to write this subplot well and respectfully?

Belisaurius Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts from Big Blue Nowhere Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
#2: Dec 1st 2019 at 5:23:46 PM

The problem with cultural appropriation is that cultures have been stealing ideas from each other from the beginning of human civilizations. Just look at the Greeks and the Romans. Or the French and the English. Or China and basically every eastern asian culture. Partial adoption of another culture isn't a problem yet it's far too often called appropriation.

Personally, I wouldn't touch the concept with a ten foot pole but you do you.

As for doing things respectfully, don't have character flaws that are the direct result of a character's culture. You can have character flaws that are due to misinterpretations of said culture, failing to live up to the ideals of that culture, or even running counter to the cultural influences but never make the culture it'self a flaw.

For example, the Japanese pride themselves as being hard working, courteous, perfectionist. Having a japanese chararcter that is lazy, rude, and sloppy is a perfect setup for a villain or antagonist.

CrystalGlacia from at least we're not detroit Since: May, 2009
#3: Dec 1st 2019 at 9:33:39 PM

The example I tend to use when describing cultural appropriation to Westerners is the way the Japanese use Christianity in anime. More often than not, Catholic-esque imagery and trappings show up in anime just because they look cool and exotic and foreboding, and in ways and contexts that either misunderstand or go against how actual practicing Catholics use and relate to those things in real life, and in a specific way that makes it obvious they were reinterpreted through a different cultural lens. It's not really the same thing because it's a "non-dominant" culture appropriating a "dominant" culture, which already happens a lot with Western culture, but I like to think the underlying idea and sentiments are at least somewhat similar.

Normally, I'd say to avoid the concept as well unless you really know what you're doing, but I think you have some more room to work here because you're using a fictional culture (that I'm guessing isn't simply a Fantasy Counterpart Culture). Hell, stuff like this is why I prefer using an entirely invented world of cultures that don't resemble any real-world ones- I don't have to worry that I haven't dug deep enough into a culture to accurately and respectfully portray it, because I originated everything about it.

So maybe these people take characters or gods depicted in the Book of Maja for their own stories and reinterpret them with a different personality or role, just because from their cultural experience, they just seem to make more sense as something else. Ergo, Hijacked by Jesus or Everybody Hates Hades. Maybe they steal cultural costumes or trappings wholesale that you just don't use outside their intended purpose, which happens to Native American cultures all the time. If you depict these cultural stories, costumes, and trappings in their proper context and make their importance clear before these other people come and mess them up, you'll probably be well on your way.

Edited by CrystalGlacia on Dec 1st 2019 at 12:38:05 PM

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
Sharysa Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Dec 2nd 2019 at 12:44:03 PM

Quick note about Evangelion: Its high profile actually brought out all the butthurt Christians crying about how it completely misrepresented their religion, after they've been using Buddhism, Hinduism, voodoo, Native American religions, and Maya/Aztec religions the exact same way for decades and then telling everyone in those religions to stop whining because "it's not a big deal, it's just a movie/show."

So a lot of non-Christians/non-whites had a nice laugh at how Christians/white-people finally got a taste of what it feels like to be on the other side of "cultural appropriation." To see such an important aspect of their culture used as window dressing and shock value? It's not gonna DIRECTLY kill you, but it will lead to stereotyping, Follow the Leader works where other people think it's a great idea and KEEP doing it, and then you'll probably get insensitive or just plain dumb questions from outsiders about your freaky religion and what do you do all the time.

Belisaurius Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts from Big Blue Nowhere Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
#5: Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:35:08 PM

Gonna be honest, as a Christian I find Evangelion incredibly baffling and a little funny. Like the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe has more to do with Christianity than Evangelion and the writers couldn't have missed the point harder if they had decided to torture people to repent for their sins. No, not the Torturee's sins, the Torturer's sins. I told you they'd have missed the point.

Really, Christians would be more aggravated over the UNDERAGED NUDITY than the Christian symbolism.

DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#6: Dec 3rd 2019 at 9:25:08 AM

Its a touchy subject, but that in itself shouldn't stop anyone from writing. Its a thing that happens, and so becomes a fit subject of art. The point, of course, will be to illustrate the consequences of cultural appropriation from the point of view of the victims. The question for you is how central this element is to the plot, and how far you want to take the consequences. It could be a mild annoyance, create the basis for prejudice and discrimination against the native population, or sever their connection to the spirit of their world, threatening their survival.

The other question is what you have your characters do about it. Are any of the settlers sympathetic? Do any of native population "sell out" for personal gain? Is there a way for the protagonists to set things right? Or must they find a way to adapt to the changes being imposed upon them? I would be interested in learning more about what you intend to do.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Jaybie the ideamancer from A flurry of ideas and emotion Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
the ideamancer
#7: Dec 3rd 2019 at 12:18:09 PM

Well,it's a subplot that explains the settlers and natives way of interacting. My idea was that the settlers have a book called the "Book of Katheska" that was originally the natives' sacred book but with things changed to favor the settlers or erase things that the settlers don't agree with.

The natives way of dealing with it at the time of the story is to keep trying to practice their true culture amongst themselves. They've tried talking to the settlers about how they feel about their book being taken and changed. Being hostile to the settlers only seems to lead to trouble for them.

The settlers refuse to admit that their history text is an abridged version of the natives' sacred text.

DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#8: Dec 3rd 2019 at 5:32:34 PM

So changing the attitudes of the new settlers is out of the question, and they must simply find a way to cope with the new reality? That makes your work a reflection on the way cultural appropriation works in the real world, more or less. It would behoove you to read some nonfictional accounts of this for reference, for example, I found this one to be rather helpful in better understanding the larger context that surrounds an act of cultural appropriation.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Sharysa Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Dec 4th 2019 at 9:59:50 AM

DeMarquis: Yeah, "they're not gonna stop and they have most of the societal power, let's just save our energy" is very much a realistic response to appropriation.

Another case of cultural appropriation is that of Filipino tattoos—we started rediscovering our tattooing traditions after centuries of thinking tattoos are for criminals and backwards tribesmen, partly because the conquistadors are the people who made us stop tattooing in the first place.

Now there's a bunch of white tourists trekking off to Apo Whang-Od, "the last Filipino tattoo artist," and getting Filipino tattoos for an "authentic Filipino experience..." blissfully ignoring four main facts:

A) She's not the last Filipino tattoo artist, she's been training her nieces to do it.

B) Tattoos are supposed to be statements of community and bloodlines, and Whang-Od is of the Kalinga tribe. While Karen from Minnesota MIGHT be part-Filipino, she may not be Kalinga.

C) A whole lot of indigenous tribesmen are poor and marginalized by the main ethnicities on Luzon, and Whang-Od's stated that she tattoos foreigners because she needs money. She doesn't leave offerings or sing prayers to the gods when she tattoos a random tourist, because they're not Kalinga.

D) There are a lot of Filipino DIASPORA tattoo artists, and they all have stated that you can't get Filipino tattoos without Filipino heritage. Maybe nobody talks about them because they speak English well, aren't poor enough to need money, and they'd be able to TELL all the tourists to get a DNA test before asking for tattoos.

And for me as a Filipino-American, who hasn't been to the Philippines since I was twelve? It's so fucking insulting to see a bunch of white folks just trek off to the Philippines ON VACATION and get tattoos that they know nothing about, when I'm almost thirty and haven't seen the whole maternal side of my family for half my life. Then I grew up with my parents warning me never to get ANY tattoos, Western or traditional, or else I'd never get hired in the Philippines and the cops might put me in jail for THINKING I'm a criminal if I ever get a somewhat-visible arm tattoo.

While I live in America and tattoos aren't as bad here, my Asian friends ALSO worry about tattoos because if you're brown and have anything that can't be covered up, you might be mistaken for a gang-banger. This extends to me, five feet tall and still getting mistaken for a teenager.

And then to have white folks go on about "culture is meant to be SHARED :) "when people bring up cultural appropriation is even more insulting, because Europeans spent five hundred years forcing everyone else to adopt THEIR culture and now they're turning around and calling our "ancient traditions" beautiful and exotic.

Edited by Sharysa on Dec 4th 2019 at 10:13:22 AM

DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#10: Dec 5th 2019 at 7:25:41 PM

It must be maddening to see people getting tattoos that have cultural meaning for you, while to them they're just an exotic form of body art, basically. Still, sounds to me that the more serious problem is the behavior of the police, who seem to be arresting people based on poorly informed stereotypes.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Sharysa Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Dec 6th 2019 at 3:47:00 PM

Yeah, the Double Standard regarding whyte folks looking "cool and rebellious" while POC just look like "criminals" is DEFINITELY a sore spot.

Also, the tourists getting "aUtHeNtIc FiLiPiNo InK" and commercializing our religious practices actually got noticed very quickly by Polynesians/Pacific Islanders—the whole genre of "tribal" tattoos STARTED from tourists running off to New Zealand and other Polynesian countries because their tattoos are so intricate.

Doesn't help that Filipino tattoos are clearly related to that art-form and have near-identical motifs and meanings/symbolism to Polynesian tattoos. sad

Edited by Sharysa on Dec 6th 2019 at 5:32:35 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#12: Dec 15th 2019 at 3:40:06 PM

Yeah, there are two phenomenon here: the first one is the fact while all culture is shared, by imitation, stealing and downright thivery is semi-organic process of sort, in the same way other will take on the invader costumes and so own and own.

Now and here is the other catch: the culture that most often than not apropiate thing is diferent from the one who force their culture on other, they are linked but not exactly the same which is trcikery lie here.

as in the case a lot of appropriation come bounderies of what a people consider sacred and what not, in this age of globalization and cosumerism, very little is sacred in fact and the fact stuff like anime can use cristianity as cool fact(and hell, PLENTY of western show use Christianity for trapping or outright discard what they dont like and even between denominations, like for example Protestantism often see Catholicism reeks of foreign exoticism for example).

And finally I will said is power disparity: a dominant culture eventually devopt a tolerance of their on stuff than others, Christianity is mocked, change and alter as one see fit, pagan gods and costume suffer the same because barring resurrecionist stuff they are dead and therefore "fair game" to the point Thor can be reset as new thing in comics than a mythos people once shared, if that seen arbitary is because that how power moves.

So, the way this can be handle.....I will said what you are taking is cultural domination, close to stuff like eradication and modification of mesoamerican culture under the Spanish rule, which is very different ballpark that "Just" taking costumes for their exoticism, indeed marquis is right in that the best idea is a best just be quiet and carry your practice in secret or blended with the dominant one, like jews did in many country on their history.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
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