Are these Character Tropes?

Also, what about character pages where spoilers are unmarked because otherwise it would be hard to write anything? Or spoilers for a particular movie are off? MCU pages currently have "all spoilers for previous Phases are unmarked on most character pages" policy.

Check these: MCU: Iron Man, MCU: Thor, MCU: Hela.

Edited by Asherinka on Jun 7th 2021 at 9:55:36 PM

Then they're fair game there...

Look, really all it comes down to is that, if we want to be courteous about spoilers such as who dies, the only real solution is to move that trope off the character page. Agree, disagree, that's your prerogative, but if you want to discuss the spoiler handling you should ideally go here.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I don't disagree with spoiler handling, but I want some clarity. If we establish the rule: "no death tropes on character pages," it should be precise.

Like: no death tropes on character pages, unless:

• the character is a spirit, an undead or comes back in some shape or form
• spoilers for this film / all spoilers are allowed on this character page
• etc

I'm trying to think of the exceptions. Otherwise such rule will result in a lot of unnecessary back-and-forth editing and conflicts.

Edited by Asherinka on Jun 8th 2021 at 10:01:27 PM

I mean, I'd just handle it like I always handle spoilers: As a judgement call. Will knowing this information ruin the work for someone? If so, I'll tag it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

That sounds way better than "the mod said all death tropes should be removed, the end" :-) I've seen such edits on MCU pages already, with other tropers reversing them, that's why I'm worried.

Still, what about Redemption Equals Death?

I don't believe that we ever wrote an official policy about this because, as with almost everything else related to Characters subpages, some degree of judgment is necessary. However, there are some general principles we can observe.

• Most Death Tropes are fundamentally plot tropes, not character tropes. Character tropes describe their personality, their archetypal role, and so on. Characters subpages should tell us who these people are, not what happens in the story.
  • There are a few exceptions. They Killed Kenny comes to mind, since "Kenny" dying in every episode becomes memetically associated with that character (and is therefore not a spoiler).
• Most death tropes are inherent spoilers, and this is doubly true on Characters subpages where their mere presence gives them away. If Alice has Character Death or Killed Off for Real listed, it's literally impossible for someone to obey our spoiler policy and not expose it to a casual reader.

Thus, we hit our paradox. Who are Characters subpages written for? If it's for casual readers who don't want spoilers, then we must keep any tropes that inherently spoil important story elements away from them. If it's for people who have already seen/read/played the work, then we should eliminate spoiler tagging requirements entirely.

We can't mix and match. It's got to be all one way or all the other.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 8th 2021 at 8:05:19 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

That's a false dichotomy; there's a middle ground.

There are three things our spoiler policy should set out to accomplish:

1. Keep casual readers who don't want to be spoiled from being spoiled. This is the entire reason spoiler tags exist.

2. Keep the wiki accessible for readers who don't want to be spoiled. In other words, don't hide pages under massive walls of white unless there's a good reason to do so.

3. Avoid reducing the quality of the wiki for the readers who don't care about spoilers, whether that's because they have already finished the work or for some other reason.

The question becomes how we balance these three goals.

When I read any page on this wiki with the "show spoilers" checkbox enabled, I browse any ATT or forum thread (as forum users are notoriously lax about spoilers,) or I edit any page (as I can't hide spoilers while editing,) I choose to run the risk of being spoiled for a work I don't want spoiled for me. Even if I turn off the checkbox, I accept that self-fulfilling spoiler tags can all but reveal a twist.

Removing death tropes from character pages because "they're spoilery" doesn't accomplish anything. In the vast majority of cases, there are going to be other tropes/examples in their folder that spoil a casual reader. My advice for casuals is to avoid going into the examples section of a work page at all unless they're willing to accept the possibility of being spoiled, and the character page is essentially an extension of its work page.

That's one opinion, and it's not the only one.

Also, you don't address the other point, which is that Characters subpages are for telling us who these people are, not what happens in the story. Again, ostensibly. If we decide that any trope example that is associated with any character in the work goes on their subpage, then the main page for most works will be left fairly empty.

Obviously it's not an either-or, or we would have written a concrete policy. However, it has been my impression that the intention of Characters subpages is to capture examples primarily from the Character Tropes, Characterization Tropes, and Characters as Device indexes.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 8th 2021 at 8:20:07 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

But we have thousands of characters pages for characters with little or no actual characterization per se, like the dinosaurs from Jurrasic Park or the many videogame bosses who only have a mechanical role. I'd argue character pages are more for a character's narrative role than their "characterization".

And a character's death usually means their exit from the narrative, which usually means a great deal to both their narrative role and their characterization.

We have millions of ZCE, too. The existence of bad examples isn't persuasive that we should allow bad examples.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Are you then saying that these:

Are "bad examples" that shouldn't exist?

Probably, yes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Yep; we've cut pages due to being not-characters. The purpose of the wiki is storytelling and characterization is an important factor in that. The "videogame bosses who only have a mechanical role" are people confusing this site (topic: tropes) for something like Wikia (topic: works). We only care about works insofar as they provide us with examples of tropes. We only care about characters insofar as they provide examples of characterization tropes. How to write the characters, how to make them unique, how to make them work together.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'm on team character pages are useful for keeping tropes together that relate to each character, even if some of them aren't strictly speaking "characterization tropes". If I wanted to read about, say, Leia Organa, I would want all tropes which reasonably apply specifically to her in one place, not spread across 10+ works pages. I would much rather have this organized for simplicity of reading than for strict characterization purposes.

That said, I agree with the person who pointed out that it makes sense to treat franchises differently from single works. Admitted bias here- I don't care about spoilers and always leave them on, so my opinion on the death tropes might not count

Edited by Tremmor19 on Jun 20th 2021 at 5:13:01 AM

So I noticed that a lot of "event" or "action" tropes have been placed on Character pages.

Things like Curb-Stomp Battle, Super Window Jump, No-Holds-Barred Beatdown, Dynamic Entry, and Big Damn Heroes.

But they honestly just sound like tropes that should go on the main page since they don't say anything about the character in particular. Should these go on the character pages?

Edited by reppuzan on Jun 24th 2021 at 5:15:39 AM

Generally, I'd say no, but there may be some exceptions for things that a character has a habit of doing.

One-off events, definitely not.

Edited by Twiddler on Jun 24th 2021 at 11:20:13 AM

^^ Plot tropes to me.

Recently a troper by the name of samfluture has deleted a bunch of Implied Love Interest examples from the Fire Emblem character pages, (Including but not limited to Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade and Fire Emblem Awakening) saying that they don't belong here and should be in the fandom or ship section, (even though this trope has to do with the game developers not the fandom) its not objective or correct, (despite only these characters getting extra scenes and being easier to get their supports with each other, proof of some of these scenes I will link later) and that its a contentious among the fanbase. (despite anything related to shipping is contentious by its very nature and we have a trope page for fan preferred couples)

As I feel these examples fit the variation described on the trope page, I politely asked to discuss it through PM, bringing up my points while asking them to further explain their reasoning in case I missed something but got no reply back. So after waiting a few days I decided to ask the question here, while also notifying them again, this time of my query here, so they can weigh in if they so choose. As I don't use the forums often, I apologize in advance If if this is the wrong topic. Is samfluture right and the implied love interest examples do not belong on the character pages or should they be restored as they are proper examples?

Some evidence of the examples,

Eliwood and Ninian:

Chrom and Sumia:

^Intro where she explicitly appears as Lucina's mother

Robin and his possible examples:

Implied Love Interest is not YMMV, so if it applies, it should be on the work page or characters page.

OK, I'll get to work then, thanks for the quick answer.

Hi! I was not online. I'd ask, why would you add implied love interest? There's no implied love interest, and there's a lot of mixed signals to not canonize anyone above other. For example, Olivia has the only son who has the same eye signal like Chrom and is his quickest support, and represented with him in Warriors. Female Robin is indeed Chrom's most popular wife and her conversation changes if Lucina is her daughter. The maiden is Chrom's default wife. Different from what some mistenkly believe, if Chrom doesn't have supports he will automatically marry the npc maiden. Etc... etc... In the links below, there are some discussions about the subject in forums of the fandom, and as you see, there's no conclusion about that. So what's the reason to push one love interest over another other than starting ship wars? Is that really necessary? Is this good for T Vtropes?

Following, there's a lot of forums where people disagree with the pushed or (canon) love interest, and this subject is a reason for fights in the fandom. In a quick search in google, a lot of mixed information is found about that, because, indeed, there's no implied love interest unless in pairings that are confirmed true in later games like Marth x Caeda (in Archanea) or Lewyn x Erinys (in Jugdral). Sumia x Chrom, Robin x Chrom, Ninian x Eliwood, Lilina x Roy, Lyn x Eliwood, Lyn x Rath, Hector x Eliwood aren't canon or implied. (For example, how can Lyn have three implied love interests? This makes zero sense). https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/204447-fire-emblem-heroes/79356510 Chrom x Olivia canon now?

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/46516-chroms-canon-wife-confirmed/

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/52975-fire-emblem-awakening-cd-drama-so-the-village-maiden-is-chroms-canon-wife/ (here it says it's the maiden due to the cd drama)

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/42613-chrom-and-olivia-is-canon/page/2/ (a whole topic to defend that Chrom x Olivia is canon)

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/204447-fire-emblem-heroes/76824224?page=4#46 (is it Olivia?)

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/c3giod/is_sullys_chrom_canon_wife/ Is it sully? https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/a8w6qd/is_sumia_chroms_canonical_wife/ (is it Sumia?)

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/9dboy6/sumia_and_chrom_is_not_canon_can_some_people_stop/ (Sumia is not!)

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/9dboy6/sumia_and_chrom_is_not_canon_can_some_people_stop/

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/2k933a/is_lucinas_marriage_to_mu_canon/ (Is Lucina it's canon wife?)

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/643003-fire-emblem-awakening/78579817 (Is Sumia Robin's wife?)

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/204447-fire-emblem-heroes/76868847 (Tharja won as Robin's canon wife above Lucina!)

About Blazing Blade:

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/90723-lyn-x-rath-is-canon/page/2/ (a whole topic to discuss if Rath is Lyn's canon husband - so is it fair to put Hector as implied love interest?)

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/64295075 Topic to discuss Roy canon mother

https://www.google.com/search?q=who+is+roy%27s+canon+mother&rlz=1C1OKWM_pt-BRBR899BR899&sxsrf=ALeKk03BH93t04FMpYTgsuvHAn53T6CXtw:1625443224406&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjW0Pjvz8rxAhUTQ80KHeK3AYQ4ChD8BSgBegQIARAD&biw=1366&bih=657 in google first images are Fiora and Lyn to Eliwoo's canon wife (so it's incorrect to push Hector as her implied interest)

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/204447-fire-emblem-heroes/77810451 Who is Eliwood's canon wife: Lyn or Fiora?

Topic to discuss if Hector and Farina is canon (the most popular in google, that points that Lyn x Hector is not the implied love interest) https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/468480-fire-emblem/64929720?page=1#:~:text=Just%20like%20how%20Ninian%20is,Farina%20exclusively%20in%20his%20mode.

Most popular Chrom wife seconded official poll (Robin and Olivia, Sumia is not even placed in the poll): https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/39475-apparently-there-were-additional-polls-in-knights-of-iris-besides-character-popularity/

Official art in which Robin is represented with Tharja and Chrom with Olivia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HIVMmwMdv0

All Chrom's marriages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhpXWIjD7RU

Eliwood x Fiora: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwWUnCw36Bo

Lyn x Eliwood special conversation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36sC9PHn9oE

etc... etc...

Now, I think it's fake information putting one pairing as more canon than another and it will just fuel ship wars and false information. It's not fair to have an unbiased wikia? If everything can be argued to be canon, so there's no implied love interest.

Edited by samfluture on Jul 4th 2021 at 6:42:56 AM

As for Robin and Eliwood x Ninian examples against:

-Roy is not a dragon so Ninian couldn't be his mother - Olivia has quicker supports with Chrom, she basically is the quicker to marry him -The default wife of Chrom is the maiden, not Sumia -Cynthia's introduction (Cynthia's daughter), she doesn't recognise Chrom -The scenes doesn't prove it as ca-non -The fanbase don't see it as canon or implied love interest and is often reason of fighting (why Swordsman want to push love interests so hard starting ship wars?) - There's contractody information about ships -The developers never confirmed one ship over another, for example, Olivia and F Robin have more shipping material with Chrom than Sumia in spin offs - Etc... Etc...

Honestly, I beg to edit out it from character's page to avoid tension in the fanbase. Fire Emblem has a whole page for "ships on spades", which such content would be better. There's no necessity to push one ship over another in T Vtropes. Part of the fanbase will try to push their OTPS but it's not fair to the fandom, since it's a very biased content, no matter what ship the poster in question want to defend.

Edited by samfluture on Jul 4th 2021 at 5:18:33 AM

I did not know you were offline, as I waited for awhile, so sorry about that. I asked to readd after permission here, as without doing so is Edit Warring. You seem to be confusing Fan Preferred Couple or general shipping with Implied Love Interest, it does not have to do with fans but with the game developers and the extra content they give to only those characters. Also you should of waited for a response from the forums, as what you just did was Edit Warring, which could get us both suspended and you ignored Twiddler.

Edited by TheSwordsman on Jul 4th 2021 at 9:04:04 AM

I'm not going to fully delve into Fire Emblem ship warring again, but I'll counter your points:

• It's never said that Roy isn't quarter dragon, and Fire Emblem dragons are weird enough that he could have just not inherited Ninian's dragon genes.
• The opening animation of Awakening blatantly shows Sumia as Chrom's wife, Sumia lacks S-supports with half the guys for no discernible reason, and Cynthia (aside from being a dumbass) is probably too young to know what Chrom looked like regardless of who her father is. Additionally, Olivia's "faster" support with Chrom is basically irrelevant for marriage purposes.

We're not "pushing one ship over another", we're saying that the game does.

So why everyone disagree in a lot of discussions in the fanbase? What the point of putting Sumia if Olivia, Maiden and Robin are also believed to be implied love interests and Olivia is more proeminent in side material? T Vtropes want credibllity or start a ship war and push away well intentioned members becase someone want to edit quastionable information of pushed ships?

In Lyn's page of implied love interest there was: Hector, Eliwood and Rath. What's the point of that if basically all her love interests can be interpreted as implied? The poster even argumented on bloking anyone who questioned the implied love interest narrative and this, besides not being an objective information in Fire Emblem, often brings ship wars, take away the joy of a lot of people, and will happen to people to question the narrative of the page. Is this fair? I posted a lot of examples in the fanbase for argumentation of all ships, so it's not my word against the poster, but the fanbase claiming that there's not cohesive answer. Sumia other than being incredibly impopular, doesn't appear represented with Chrom as love interest in side materials. Even the developers avoid such discussion and bring mixed sings. Now, if it's so importnat to tv tropes to put an "implied love interest" topic to try to push an ambiguous narrative in a franchise that main feature is choosing the ending and not even it's fanbase agree with it, it's up with you, but I think it's completly unnecessary, specially with someone that again: is pushing the idea of blocking everyone who disagrees with it in a private conversation.

Paritcularly I argue with not pushing any pairing over another since most Fire Emblem games work with the concept with alternate timelines and give mixed signs about that. For example, I could go crazy with my otps and try to add biased argumentations to why it's implied or more "true", but I would be disingenous and I ask for neutrality and peace in the fandom.

Edited by samfluture on Jul 5th 2021 at 9:35:03 AM