Vampire: The Masquerade 5E

There's obviously a lot of Requiem influence in 5E's DNA.

• The Anarchs are more like the Carthians.
• The Camarilla is more like the Invictus.
• The Bahari have gone from fringe Path to a major sect (They're the Circle of Crone equivalnet)
• The "Church of Caine" has gone from being Sabbat-only to something the Camarilla and Anarchs both endorse. (Lancea Sanctum)

So far, there's no Ordo Dracul but the Tremere were always like that. It was, however, speculated the Sabbat would become more like VII (The Black Hand) or completely evil 0 humanity monsters like Belial's Brood.

However, the dissolution of White Wolf means that they might be dialing these things back with Onyx Path as they've never shown quite the same ned to make things conform more with Requiem.

The Tremere are now much more like "regular" vampires now anyway since the United States government taking out the Council of Seven and their immediate subordinates means the Pyramid is permanently fragmented. The breaking of the blood bond for all Tremere means the universal loyalty they previously displayed to one another is now gone as well.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 18th 2018 at 6:35:56 AM

The translation guide already confirm a lot of what you said: that invictus want to be the camarilla from masquerade, that Tremere, Assamita and Giovanni are one step to be a sect on their own(and I feel they should be), but the ordo dracul wont be tremere but tzimice(and it make sense in general, the tzimice are pretty big into reforming the vampire condition).

The Assamites (Banu Haqim now) have joined the Camarilla and the Followers of Set (Ministry of Love) joined the Anarchs—which means the Anarchs are now full of brains with access to smuggling networks for guns as well as explosives.

So, interesting times.

The Lasombra are also joining the Camarilla or at least a large enough chunk of them that the whole Lasombra Antitribu thing is no longer a suicidal choice.

I created a page for Vampire: The Masquerade 5th Edition.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/VampireTheMasqueradeFifthEdition

I have the permission of the trope folk for it as a separate page from the original.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 19th 2018 at 7:18:13 AM

From Onyx Path's forums: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/1268645-ww-paradox-has-other-worries-than-lgbt-outrage

"In today's press conference the Chechen minister Umarov declared V5 to be an ideological genocide of the Chechen people and an attempt to vilify and twist their identity the way it was done to the Jews and Armenians. He, as a representative of his republic, is very upset that Paradox didn't apologize to them and intends to pursue legal action through international courts. He also called Paradox nazis and blames them and the likes of V5 for the rise of radical terrorism.

Umarov's speech was a mixture of hilarious ranting, fairly good thoughts on use of fiction to erase cultural identity (and the way Chechnya chapter was written is a pretty solid example of colonialist thinking in action). Russian localizers of V20, Studio 101, tried to pitch him the idea of funding them to buy/rent Vt M license and publish a proper book about Wo D Russia."

That reads to me as someone who is, at least somewhat deliberately, overinflating the harm caused to win political points. As noted, there was some very strong colonialist overtones to the whole thing, but "cultural genocide" is dramatically overblown (and an obvious cover to any/all issues that do form the core issue that VtM5 exploited).

I'm not excusing WW in any way, but it looks like someone is deliberately stoking a tempest in a teapot for venal political gain.

Based off of just the Corebook, I really fucking hate what they did to the Tremere and Thaumaturgy.

I'm not talking about killing off the Council of Seven, that would, by and large, be fine if the surrounding fallout was properly handled. But it very much wasn't.

I mean, yeah, the Clan-wide Blood bond to the Council of Seven (and through them to the Clan as a whole) is gone.

But the fucking Chantry system of Tremere cohabitation, cooperation and teaching wouldn't suddenly go poof as a consequence of that. Most Tremere didn't even have Havens of their own outside the Chantry. Tremere acolytes wouldn't suddenly go 'Well, I'm no longer bound to the Council, so you can take you free room and board and your instructions into centuries of occult knowledge and your protection from the predation of more politically powerful members of other Clans and shove it!' en-masse.

The Regents and Lords are still powerful Ancillae and Elders in their own right. Ones with decades or even centuries of experience in keeping their underlings in line. There are plenty of reasons why a good number of the more capable members of the 5th-7th circles of Apprentices might attempt to strike out on their own and succeed, but by and large the majority of Regents would keep a tighter leash on their Chantries and not let the fucking Fledgelings and Neonates wander off to do their own thing. ^{I can say this from personal experience}  I mean I play a Regent in a MET Vt M game who's still relatively new and underpowered for his role (I started off playing him seven years ago as a 6th Circle Apprentice on the cusp of being old enough to be recognised as an Ancilla and roleplayed my way to Regent) and he can still wipe the floor with all of the Apprentices in his Chantry put together and not break a sweat. If the Storytellers ever decided to update the setting to V5, the first thing he'll do after the Council of Seven is dead is force each and every Apprentice in his Chantry to sign a Blood Contract ensuring their loyalty until such time as he deems them sufficiently educated to strike out on their own. And he's relatively nice in that he'd genuinely at least leave them the option of some eventual independence.

And even if the Apprentices did all want freedom badly enough to give up a free haven and access to further education and all that and even if the Regents and Lords did somehow become complete enough pushovers to let that happen, The Pyramid is not the reason Tremere (would) stick together.

They would stick together because: A. That's what the very first Tremere were used to from their days as mortal Mages and it's what pretty much every Camarilla Tremere since then is used to because of that and Vampires are creatures of habit so they would continue to do so and induct their Childer into that tradition of outward unity and benign internal competition and B. Because it's a long established fact that there's like four different Clans and multiple Bloodlines containing a large number of Elders who have a centuries-old genocidal grudge against Clan Tremere that they've also passed on to their Childer (Gangrel, Nosferatu, Assamits, Tzimisce, Salubri, Baali, Free Gargoyles, the survivors of House Goratrix, et al) and there are plenty of other enemies outside of Vampire society who bare a grudge against Clan Tremere above all other Vampires (The Order of Hermes in particular has such a massive hateboner for Clan Tremere) and Clan Tremere needs to stick together and present a united front because if they ever appear weak, their hordes of enemies are going descend upon them and crush them into the ground.

As for what they did to Thaumaturgy...

Fuck what they did to Thaumaturgy.

Edit: On the other hand I fucking love both the concept and writing surrounding (House) Carna. And not just because Carna is, like, pretty much exactly the came character as the Sire I wrote for my Regent character, except that my character's sire is more willing to work within the system (and also Jewish).

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 19th 2018 at 7:55:09 PM

The hyperbole is from....well, the Chechnyan government that's been murdering people.

http://nsn.fm/hots/ministr-nazval-igru-pro-vampirov-v-chechne-ideologicheskim-genocidom.html

​

And according to google translate;

Umarov called the game about vampires in Chechnya "ideological genocide"

November 19, 2018 at 14:48 📷

The Minister of National Policy, External Relations, Press and Information of the Government of the Chechen Republic, Dzhambulat Umarov, accused the creators of the fifth version of the board role-playing game Vampire: The Masquerade, which described “Chechens-vampires” led by “Sultan Ramzan” in the ideological genocide. The Minister said this at a press conference NSN.

“Now we see the ideological genocide of the Chechen people. It is still not clear what is worse, physical or ideological. It is ideological, spiritual. People do not want anyone to come to us. People want the map to not have Chechens at all. I very much hope that my state and international law will help me and every Chechen in deservingly, fairly and severely punishing these villains, ”said Dzhambulat Umarov.

Recall that in NSN a press conference was held, dedicated to the scandal around the game about "Chechens-vampires", released by the White Wolf studio in the company Paradox Interactive. After the release caused outrage among representatives of the LGBT community, the company announced the disbandment of the studio. However, the Chechen press minister said at the NSN press conference that this is not enough to apologize to the Chechen people for "the greatest insult." Umarov said that the authors of an insulting game could, as an apology, publish a new book about the merits of the Chechen people and their region. The minister also expressed hope for an apology in monetary terms.

Do you suppose they are so sheltered that they do not realize that going after a developer of tabletop RPGs so hard for not taking them seriously enough as a nation does not, in fact, help their case on the international stage?

If they want to be taken seriously, they should get upset at how much Clan Tremere got shafted in V5, like an adult.

(Seriously though, I feel like 'Clan Tremere got shafted in V5' is, like, steadily becoming my ceterum censeo)

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 19th 2018 at 6:24:30 PM

Just posting this in here as well since I'm sure you're going to be the only ones to really notice, but I deleted the following entry from the Unfortunate Implications page;

• Became contested as the author allegedly disowned the piece due to a hack-job of editing that removed RL sidebars as well as treated in-universe fiction as fact. It was also noted to have gotten national attention in Russia and due to the Streisand Effect, actually resulted in raising money for the Railbow Railroad charity (which moves LGBT from countries dangerous for them to be in) as well as bringing attention to the atrocities in Chechnya.company]].

There's no citation, it's having a conversation in the main page, and it's not actually an unfortunate implication. We only have a single person's word that the author claimed this, and we only have the author's word that it's true (granted it's been about a week since I heard this so it may have been backed up since then).

In other news while I was reading up the controversy on Twitter (and I'm depressed at the number of people who keep saying with a straight face that White Wolf should have kept the books at it was to stick it to the SJW crowd) and apparently Martin Ericsson demanded that the W20 Changing Ways book have transphobic, anti-vaxxer and anti-abortion into the book. The author of that half-chapter, Holden Shearer, was pre-emptively banned from the Onyx Path Forums and didn't find out about the changes until the book was released. He found out who ordered the changes because people told him about a Something Awful post from someone talking to the new boss over there about it.

If true it's appalling that the head of White Wolf was adding in such offensive content without the knowledge of the original author and that Onyx Path just rolled over at let it happen.

EDIT: Reading more about it and apparently the W20 Line Editor was against the changes but White Wolf forced it through via their licensor rights.

Edited by Shaoken on Nov 20th 2018 at 8:48:30 PM

Edit:

Re-read the material and misunderstood.

Yeah, fuck that guy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 20th 2018 at 6:52:30 AM

Holden's been off the Onyx Path forums for a while. Ever since his pretty ignominious exit from the Exalted 3e team for being both unable to get the product out the door, and also covering John Mørke's ass when he was creeping on female OPP freelancers, still insisting to this day that it was 'just flirting.'

Dude can get to absolute fuck.

I will say that some of Holden's work is really good, it's just that you can get work of similar or higher quality from people who are not assholes.

Probably on time, as well. ZING!

(Side note: dude has also been off rpgnet for a while, because he kept turning every thread related to harassment in the tabletop industry into an open firestorm from which a certain harasser friend of his was always exempted.)

Edited by CountDorku on Nov 21st 2018 at 5:18:13 AM

Not sure who the "fuck that guy" is directed at so I'm just confused.

Didn't know that stuff about Holden so as a person he gets a from me. Makes me glad I kept looking into it and got confirmation from the line editor. Does anyone know if Martin is still with White Wolf or is he getting replaced? From day one he always struck me as being an Edgelord so this isn't surprising, just disappointing. And with the changing ways example I can't say I'd be comfortable with any product he s involved in if he can force in offensive content over the wishes of authors and line editors.

The whole inserting of prejudicial material is the guy I am saying should be fucked.

Sorry.

FYI - if anyone is interested in reading about my front row tickets to the Fall of White Wolf then they can read it here.

https://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2018/11/white-wolf-chechnya-book-review-and-me.html

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 20th 2018 at 3:24:25 AM

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I'm assuming he's not going to be part of Paradox moving forward considering how a lot of the issues that brought White Wolf down seem to be because of his direction.

It would also be a bit humorous if Paradox relied mostly on Onyx Path to develop all WOD content moving forward seeing as their plans for 5th editions got derailed by nu White Wolf

Edited by Shaoken on Nov 20th 2018 at 10:57:50 PM

Turnabout is fair play.

What, a white dude using very real harassment accusations to fan flames that'll point in every direction but the one his creeper friends are sitting in?

Color me shocked. SHOCKED, I say.

I'm sorry, I know I'm being a single-issue wonk here, but the more I explore the V5 corebook in depth the more upset I get at what the new edition did to the Tremere.

And I'm steadily becoming aware that that's not because they made my favourite Clan less powerful (for a moment there, I was worried that that might be the case and that I needed to curb my kneejerk reaction a lot more), but that whoever wrote the Tremere part of the Clans section (and thus, presumably, whoever decided which new direction to drag the Clan into) doesn't seem to have a fucking clue what the established background and theme of Clan Tremere actually is.

Like, I don't expect others, even people working on actual Vt M books, to have all read the Tremere Clanbooks as religiously as I did, but come on...

Emphasis mine:

Tremere have always competed with each other! Their entire fucking shtick was that because their inherent loyalty to the Clan as a whole was enforced by a Bloodbond to those at the very top of the Pyramid, not their fellow steppingstones at the bottom, there has always been fierce internal competition within the Clan. This is also why destroying the Council of Seven might weaken the top-down nature of the Pyramid, but it wouldn't destroy it: The Tremere are raised from (second) birth to always look for ways to advance their standing within the hierarchy and the only thing they're not allowed to do is harm the Clan as a whole in the process. The death of the Council of Seven wouldn't cause Clan Tremere to break apart, it would cause them kick their internal competition into high-overdrive as all the Lords and Regents rush to be the first ones to fill the newly empty higher steps on the Pyramid while appearing to stick together even harder to the outside world, because that perceived unity is literally the only thing keeping them from getting genocided by their many, many enemies.

And here's a bit from one of the suggested archetypes:

No, person who wrote the Tremere section, there cannot be "a new willingness to Embrace outside the traditional ranks of academics and occultists". Because the Tremere Clanbooks have long established that out of all the Clans, the Tremere were the only ones who definitively did not have a 'type' when it comes to Embraces. They would, as a rule, be willing to Embrace pretty much anyone with useful skills or connections that the Pyramid had need of, regardless of their actual aptitude for the Occult or interest in magical knowledge.

Also let's finally talk about Thaumaturgy:

Replacing the wide and varied system of paths of blood magic with, literally, Quietus is a fucking disgrace in light of how much the Clan Tremere section still talks about Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery as if it is the one useful skill that keeps the Tremere relevant within the Camarilla... Except that now the Camarilla book reveals that the Assamites/Banu Haqim have joined the Camarilla! So there's literally no fucking point to emphasizing that the Tremere's main avenue of usefulness to the Camarilla is their 'mastery of Blood Sorcery'.
There's now another Camarilla Clan who can do exactly the same goddamn thing. AND with Obfuscate and Celerity as their other Disciplines, the Banu Haqim are far better placed to use the close-combat poison oriented nature of the Quietus-by-another-name-although-it-is-still-explicitly-nicknamed-Quietus Discipline that is Blood Sorcery.

How the fuck did the destruction of the Prime Chantry in Vienna suddenly turn the Path of Blood into Quietus and erase all traces of the Lure of Flames, Movement of the Mind and Weather Control paths (and those are just the Tremere paths from the original corebook, with the various supplements, many, many other paths apparently suddenly went 'poof')? And more importantly: How the fuck does being able to spit poison fit the Tremere's 'we're descendants of Mages who emulate magic through blood' theme?
Thaumaturgy was stripped of pretty much everything that made it 'magical' and as a result the few 'magical' elements that remain (i.e. rituals) don't make any goddamn sense anymore. How is being able to transmute your blood into poison a requirement for being able to learn how to magically protect yourself from wooden stakes?

The two main appeals of Clan Tremere was always that they were outwardly cooperative, while having fierce internal competition, which allowed for a lot of political play without needing to massively disrupt the setting's power dynamics, and that Thaumaturgy with its varied spectrum of options and its balance between combat and non-combat utility made the Tremere one of the most versatile Clans in the game.

Now, however, they're just discount Malkavian knowledge junkies with a more pointless Bane and 'spitting poison' instead of 'going unseen' as their third Discipline.

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 21st 2018 at 3:19:38 PM

Ugh... while I totally get the reasons why various parties are left nameless in this whole affair, I get so mixed up sometimes trying to keep track of who is responsible for what in this whole mess. This ironically feels like a comically inept Prince's court in the process of imploding.

As for the Tremere... ooo boy. They're always such a Love It or Hate It clan, and pretty much anything involving them is going to provoke such reactions. Heck, I remember people doing virtual table flips over the destruction of House Goriatrix/the Tremere antitribu.

I always looked at the Tremere pyramid as kind of a micro-proto-Camarilla (seeing as it predated the sect's formation by centuries). It's established, sometimes implicitly and sometimes explicitly, that vampires, as a rule, don't really get along. Friendship is fleeting, but paranoia and backstabbing are evergreen. And this has been shown internally among every single clan. Why should the Tremere be different?

As for losing the entire Council of Seven, even among human institutions, losing that much leadership in one huge stroke has been shown to weaken if not downright destroy institutions of power (it's particularly noted in autocratic governments, when the vast majority of power is invested in a single person and thus losing that one person causes a ripple effect that causes a breakdown in the government in question). And humans don't generally literally feed off of each other.

Finally, in regards to needing an organization to protect them from their many varied enemies... to go back to my micro-proto-Camarilla comment, they still have one. Their enemies are generally less focused on the clan as a whole nowadays in part because the animus is usually more against that sect rather than the clan in general (even the Tzimisce are usually more "destroy the Camarilla" these nights than "destroy the Tremere" like they were before). Part of why the pyramid was necessary in their foundation was to protect from outside pressures targeted specifically at them. All jokes about fan-made bloodlines and how they have to hate the Tremere aside, most of those pressures are basically gone (the Tzimisce have mostly moved on, the Gangrel don't care, the Nosferatu that care found ways to fuck with the Tremere regardless of the pyramid, and the Banu Haqim either have let it go or are just generally against the sect that the Tremere belong to).

I have some questions about some of the details involved all around (like, how does one take out a group of seven 4th gen ancillae like that... I'm mostly expecting the answer to eventually be Saulot did it), but the fallout seems pretty reasonable to me. Mind you, I expect some diehard loyalists to the pyramid to react, well, pretty much how you reacted Robrecht. This makes sense, as an organization generally never completely disintegrates completely, but in general, I find it a solid direction to take the clan as a whole.

As for Thaumaturgy... I probably should read up to get a better grasp of what was done, but I at least totally get from a Doylist perspective why they mucked around with the discipline. In short, it was always janky and frequently led to a Game-Breaker situation. Hell, I knew GMs that actually banned Tremere characters in part because they didn't want people to have access to Thaumaturgy. It also didn't help that more than one player cheesed around rules about Discipline acquisition by investing in Thaumaturgy and "developing new Thaumaturgical paths" instead of spending more points on a new Discipline. Thaumaturgy was always due for a Nerf - the question was really just in what way would the nerf be implemented.

There's a lot to unpack in the above and I'd love to discuss it more but there's multiple reasons from the Doylist and Watsonian perspectives.

Some info that I've got from the developers are:

1. The Inner Council had to go to make it clear that the Second Inquisition can and would exterminate vampiredom completely. No one was safe.

2. To make it so more Tremere concepts were viable.

3. To make it so that player characters had more freedom as a large number of elders were killed off to create room for the top for PCs.

4. This one was stated a bit reluctantly but I think is probably one of the biggest ones: because the Saulot/Tremere/Kupala/Tzimisce plot was a Kudzu Plot and one of the most bizarre things ever created for Vampire: The Masquerade. Some players love good Saulot, others bad Saulot, and it was a huge conspiracy occupying way too much time as well as attention.

So it was a case of Cutting the Knot.

In-universe, while a bunch of vampires claim that someone must have tampered with the wards, the SI killed the Council of Seven by:

1. Global surveillance finding the Chantry.

2. Attacking during the day.

3. True Faith Society of Leopold Hunters obliterated all the Tremere wards with relics aiding them in just melting the magics protecting the place away (hedge magic ftw)

4. Sending in Special Forces that slaughtered the interior defenders

5. Cut off the head of every vampire inside, protected by the Society's Hunters from mind control.

6. Blowing up the place afterward, which seems like an extra step

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 21st 2018 at 7:35:16 AM

I have no issue with the Council of Seven being destroyed.

I have some minor issues with the idea that more Tremere concepts should be made viable. Mainly I don't oppose it, but given how heavily the corebook doubles down on the stereotyping and niche-plugging of the other Clans, I do heavily oppose them taking the Clan that traditionally had the most consistent theme and suddenly making that the only one not forced into a specific niche.

And that cuts right to what I mainly object to: Clan Tremere has gone from one of the most unique, clear and specific Clans to... The only Clan that's completely fucking generic. Even the Caitiffs... The fucking Caitiffs!!... Have more of a coherent identity than Clan Tremere now.

The Tremere used to be the Pyramid. They were unique in that despite their constant internal struggle for recognition and advancement, they were the only Clan that could actually get shit done as a group. They were The Friend Nobody Likes who were too organised and, as a collective if not as individuals, too powerful to attack or ignore. And they were Magic!

But now?

Well... They're the Clan that used to be trusted as learned scholars who have fallen from power and wish to return to i... Oh. Right... That's the Brujah.

Ok... They're the Clan whose members strengthen themselves by competing internally for authority... No, wait, that part of the Tremere identity was actually given to the Gangrel in V5.

Formerly respected, if creepy, advisers who are now heavily looked down upon even by those who make greedy use of the insights they can provi... Oops, I'm describing the Malkavians.

Underdogs who have access to a wealth of unusual knowledge that regular kindred don't? Nope, Nosferatu do that one better.

Only Clan dedicated to dark, but wondrous blood magic? Nope, not only has Thaumaturgy been replaced with Quietus-with-Rituals-bolted-on, but with the Banu Haqim joining the Camarilla the Tremere aren't even the only purveyors of blood magic among the Camarilla Clans.

So ultimately what are the Tremere actually now?

A bunch of squabbling occult scholars.

And 'occult scholar' is not a niche. It's not an identity. It's not remotely unique to the Tremere. Unlike, say, how a Nosferatu isn't going to be a movie star, a Ventrue isn't going to be a homeless bum (unless, of course, he's king of the homeless bums) and a Brujah isn't going to be a content small cog in a large machine, anyone of any Clan can be an occult scholar.

Hell, Vampire: The Masquerade's most prominent and universally known occult scholar IS A GANGREL

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 21st 2018 at 5:30:51 PM

Almost all of that about the "Tremere identity being ripped away" stuff is all stuff that predated 5th edition, though. The only two I can think of that weren't were the "trusted scholar" part (that's never been true, not since the very first publication of Vampire: the Masquerade, and any Tremere foolish enough to believe that they were trusted in any way, shape, or form may as well count the hours until someone gives them a front seat to a sunrise courtesy of a stake) and the "compete internally for authority" part (and honestly, as someone who generally played a Ventrue, I'd put forth arguments that they and the Lasombra were just as externally cohesive and internally backbiting, just with less blood bonding).

It makes sense, though - the Tremere are ultimately the usurper clan, and it makes perfect sense that they're casting about for a niche that was already developed among the other clans (particularly since they're not interested in the niche of the clan that they usurped). Now they're stuck with the niche that, for better or for worse, was always theirs from their beginnings as an Order of Hermes ritual Gone Horribly Wrong - adapt or die.

Edited by 32_Footsteps on Nov 21st 2018 at 11:52:25 AM

No. Screw that.

This is what I truly dislike about the Love It or Hate It nature of Clan Tremere. That so many players buy into the IC Tremere hate outside of the game. And because of that they didn't do any in depth reading of the Clanbook(s) or the Tremere-specific sections of various other splatbooks.

I'm absolutely fine with people not liking Clan Tremere...

But don't fucking tell me that how incredibly harshly they were screwed is something I shouldn't be upset at just because you don't like them enough to recognise how bad it is.

If any of the Vt M chronicles I used to play in (unlike the MET LRP which is going to pretty much stay 1st edition with some Revised bolted on indefinitely) were ever to start back up again, I couldn't even port my Tremere characters and NP Cs over to V5 because of how much the Clan has changed, both in theme and in characteristics.

And yeah, the 'erosion' of Clan Tremere's identity has been a longer process, beginning with giving variants of Thaumaturgy to Clan Edgelord Tzimisce and, for some reason, Clan Ninja Edgelord Assamite and then on to all that Saulot nonsense. But it's never been this bad.

Honestly, I'd much have preferred them just killing off the entire Clan to what they ended up doing.

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 21st 2018 at 6:34:15 PM

Funny thing is the vampire translation guide pretty much said the tremere should be their own sec of vampire vizer who were to valuable to get rid of them.