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It could be there as a precaution if something went wrong. Plus there isn't an indication she has relatives alive currently.
Volume 7, Episode 5 reaction:
I see people theory that the other two members of team FNKI are that dress meme 
I'm conflicted on Nora being the new Winter Maiden in that case.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Nov 30th 2019 at 10:22:06 AM
" and a landscape painting that has a crow in"
A crow you said?....that is....intersting.
Basically everyone besides Ruby has treated him like that. Jaune at least felt bad for it, and it seems like Oscar is now all but officially the Sixth Ranger to team JNPR. I'm not sure Ironwood wants Oscar for anything. The setup with Robyn Hills is interesting; she's interfering with Atlas military business and threatening military personnel, and it sounds like this isn't the first time, so Ironwood probably has more than enough pretext to have her thrown in prison, but presumably realizes that won't do his image problems any favor.
IMO the "heroes decide they can't work with Ironwood anymore" moment will likely come when he gets pushed too far (or when the council with either Jaques or Robyn refuses to go along with his agenda) and starts pulling some outright dictator shit, if Nora becomes the Winter maiden he'll be reasonable about it, insisting that if she's not willing to bear this burden then the only other choice (other than death) is for them to attempt some sort of risky procedure with the aura transference tech to separate it from her, since they can't just let her walk away and potentially be snatched up by Salem's forces.
Even if that option isn't taken it could set up for a possible (in principle) way for Oscar to get out of his fate of being Ozpin's newest body, which could bring his character conflicts back to the forefront; if there's even a chance, he would certainly be tempted to take it. I had a kind of off the cuff theory of sorts where he does go through with something like that, and it sort of works; Ozpin's soul is transferred to a robot body, the rub is that his magic stays with Oscar, effectively making him a fifth maiden, and leaving Ozpin utterly powerless besides his immortality. So uh, oops.
Well, on one hand killing off Ren and Nora makes the cast more manageable, and they're lacking a personal stake to be involved in the main story. I'd have done them in during the fall of beacon were I writing this, and axed the team Ruby split up aside from Blake running away; leaving us with RWY+J.
On the other hand, making Nora a Maiden actually addresses that problem and means Nora is no longer narrative dead-weight, but I think Weiss needs it more, since she and Blake also have that problem and title billing. For Blake's part there's a huge Faunus shaped hole in the backstory lore that needs filling, and a not so pleasant (or at least interesting) answer to the question of where the Faunus came from and how they fit into the Gods' plans immediately gives her a personal stake in things and ties her story arc to the central plot.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Dec 1st 2019 at 8:02:57 AM
"Fria" might have that double meaning, but I'm pretty sure it's just the Spanish word for "cold." I certainly don't think it's enough to read in anything about her being Nora's grandmother.
Okay what is with you and wanting Nora and Ren to die? The show may be called "RWBY" but JNPR have always been main characters. A series can have an Ensemble Cast for its main characters without all being title characters. Just look at Soul Eater.
And lacking a personal stake? How bout avenging Pyrrha like Jaune? Or being there for the only family they have left? Ya know, the exact motivation Yang has for being involved?
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 1st 2019 at 6:14:57 AM
Pretty simple, this show doesn't have a long enough runtime to juggle the cast size that it tries to work with, and it shows; the time the show has dedicated to them would be better served if it went to Jaune or Oscar or even better Weiss or Blake. Especially when you're working with a ~15 minute runtime, less is more when it comes to your cast, you really need to zero in on important characters and cut away as much of the chaffe as possible. I'd advise against even attempting an Ensemble Cast with an episode length of 15 minutes and instead have done a strict perspective where we stick with Ruby no matter what, but that bridge was already crossed.
I have nothing against either of them, but of the characters without title billing, Ren and Nora are the most weakly connected to the main plot. Yes they want to avenge Pyrrha's death, but Jaune's the one who has a One Sided rivalry with Cinder, unresolved resentment against Ozpin over Pyrrha's death, and continues to struggle to keep up with the others in a fight. Meanwhile, the whole "fighting for friends and family" angle is fine, but it's not really gotten the level of focus that Yang's familial loyalty to Ruby has*; Yang flat out tells Ozpin she's here for Ruby, not for him in volume 5, and she was the first one to suggest giving up when shit hit the fan in volume 6. Even if that's taken to be the case though, it has the problem of being somewhat redundant with Yang, which is an issue largely because of the short runtime.
* In fact as far as I know it's fanon.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Dec 1st 2019 at 11:19:50 AM
I don't think it's a coincidence the best parts of volume 6 are when the group's Seperated from JNR
Or how the quality dipped once Jaune re-entered the scene.
Though killing characters off isn't exactly the viable solution to having many characters. Especially when many characters is kind of needed for a vast world.
You could just write them out instead of killing them.
Also, we've got a guy who can stretch his aura it seems. One more influence from Hunter × Hunter?
That's what recurring/oneshot characters are for, you don't have them travel with the main cast/keep their stories separate from what the main cast is doing. The main character bench needs to be kept slim if you don't have a lot of time to work with.
RWBY also has the problem of splitting its perspective between the heroes and villains from volume 4 onwards*, which doubles the numbers of characters competing for screen time, and to make matters worse that screen time was largely wasted; the only villain who has a backstory, motivation, and personality that takes more than two lines to explain is Salem**, and 80% of that came from her Start of Darkness episode, which incidentally is a great example of how less is more with character counts; there were 4 named (for a certain value of named) characters in 6-3 and it didn't feel at all lacking.
The perspective splitting seems to stem from the fact that Salem's operations are largely cloak and dagger intrigue happening in the shadows, which is a poor match with the action cartoon beats of the typical episode such that the heroes and villains rarely come into contact; we'd have no idea who any of these people even were without the interludes. Even worse that means that Villains Act, Heroes React is in full effect; volume 7 is actually the first one to date in which the heroes are doing something on their own initiative rather than as a reaction to something the villains did. If they'd made this show more about political intrigue or had Salem be the kind of villain who takes a more direct approach, that would
** Okay and Adam, but that's for all the wrong reasons because his characterization was a confusing mess.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Dec 1st 2019 at 11:13:37 AM
For the sake of avoiding another headache as well as the fact I've gone back and seen myself in this argument with a lot of the same people at least four times now, I'm just gonna say this: Even if you think its better, the show doesn't agree. They're main characters, have been since the show began, and will only die or leave if the writers want them to.
I'm not disputing that they're main characters. But it's equally true that they probably shouldn't be given the runtime, especially at the start when it was 5 minute episodes there was no excuse for giving JNPR their own episodes.* I'd personally have stuck with RWBY+Jaune and Oscar; that gives us a nice Five-Man Band with a Sixth Ranger. Even with 15 minutes you really can't have more than one Cast Herd without problems unless your writing and storyboarding leads are absolute pros at pacing and timing.
* Pyrrha needed focus, but that would have been better served by having her interact with Ruby; set her up as a role model for Ruby and keep the stuff with Jaune in the background, and keep him as a secondary character until Pyrrha dies.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Dec 1st 2019 at 11:23:28 AM
Even in that scenario though that would require either writing around the fact Jaune and Pyrrha have to have two more team members since all teams have four members, or would require making them not care about Pyrrha suddenly dying and having just as much desire as Jaune to find out about her killer. And its not like they could just do the same thing they did with Sun, since Sun kept ditching his team to follow Blake, and that brought up complaints that as a result SSN was underdeveloped.
The thing you're suggesting would necessitate either making it seem like they didn't care one of the few people they consider family was killed, or would require the removal of the "Team" concept, which brings in an entire separate set of issues.
And yes it is canon they consider JNPR their family since they outright call Jaune their family during the scene at Pyrrha's statue in RWBY V6E9 "Lost".
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 1st 2019 at 12:26:24 PM
As their characters stand, that’s the reason I’d have killed them off during the fall of Beacon, it sidesteps the issue of the being OOC for them not to stay with the main group, and makes Jaune’s brooding about more than just a girl he had a crush on. But they also didn’t need to exist in the first place; less is more when it comes to characters, they just as easily could have been some walk-one who neither got nor needed significant characterization beyond “Pyrrha’s other teammates.”
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:11:27 AM
Then there would just be complaints they were wasted like the remainder of SSN was in favor of only focusing on Sun. Killing the entire team outside of Jaune would also increase accusations of favoritism towards him from the writers and lead to more complaints about how Jaune is unneeded and should have been killed off alongside them, which would lead to a similar discussion we're having, and would keep looping back around till we eventually get to the point of people complaining every character they don't like should have died earlier on. The solution you're suggesting wouldn't have solved the problem, just exchanged it for a different, equally big problem.
And no, Less is not more with characters, especially with characters that are underdeveloped. Even if Pyrrha would have been given more screen time, the fact she was created just to die would instead be highlighted even more, making her look even more like a living plot device than she already was. The writing in this show wasn't that good in the initial volumes in regards to characters, so less is more would have just highlighted how bad that was back then. Compare to now however where they actually try to give some semblance of character to even secondary characters, and while it doesn't always work, you can still see them as more than just a walking trope.
All this talk is useless anyway. There's no changing the past and right now the show is sticking with keeping them around. So complaining about the show not killing them off is about as useful as me griping about what a waste Cinder is to the series. I.E. it does nothing, gets repetitive and annoying, and is a waste of time. Hence why I stopped complaining about her and am just looking forward to the direction the plot seems to be heading, namely Neo backstabbing her.
And since it seems like you and I will never agree on this since we've had this discussion four times prior and this is our fifth argument over them, lets just agree to disagree and try to not bring it up in front of each other anymore.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 2nd 2019 at 12:01:51 PM
The problem is that Ren and Nora are literal background noise at this point. It took Ren 4 years before he got any sort of depth beyond "voiced by an Oum" and Nora allegedly took 7 for her character to get depth beyond "the funny one".
The most they have as a character is that they're rarely apart and constantly make nods to the fact that they're an item. That's why some people didn't like Bumblebee becoming a thing, because they think Blake and Yang are just gonna be reduced to background noise doing nothing but make nods to them being a thing.
that last part is really, odd. The reason Ren and Nora just feel kinda there is that both of them only worked as "Main Charachters" rather then just Side Charachters In volume 4 and 5 when Ruby was Seperated from her team, and have just kind of dragged on from that point. Blake and Yang are both part of the title team.
The fact Ren and Nora have the romance thing is disconnected to them feeling flat. And saying that if 2 Charachters end up together they'll both become flat Charachters is...a bit silly, IMO.
More than killing is a matter of prioritizing chararterization.
Because in the end chararterization and screen time are not the same thing, you can have plenty of screen time and not showing everything and chararterization is a resource and not a overbounding one, so you have to expended wisely.
A good example is digmon, it have 8 kids with is digimons and balancing all the cast is HARD as hell, and the show the show manage to pull it off, sure no all of them(izzy, my favorite child, never move one from being the smart one except from him being adopted), but most did and sure the secondary chararter never got to much but that is the thing; they are secondary, is okay.
Now with RWBY we found....not that much prioritization, show needed more time to build in order to make Phyrra sacrifice stick more and yet it did pretty well in that regard, on the other side we have Adam, who as cap said is characterization is a bloating mess in part by how spare he show up(a total of three times in volume 1 to 3 and one of them make him look he have standard before showing he have none), is hilarious how "Nevermore" the song were yang and blake said they over him said he is a soul lost to the darkness when in the show he look like a prick who become more of a prick.
The same can be said about Cinder, the show have stuck her chararterization so much to her chest that it make her look bland and silly, unlike Adam were he kind pinpoint to one place to another, Cinder is exactly the same.
so far volume 6 and 7 are fix that, cordovin was not a bad guy, so far they have move Ironwood transition pretty well(and in fact is refreshing to see how move into totalitarian mindset that dosent look like deranged caricature), and side of Adam reveling is brand to be killed off in the next episode(and BOY im going to shit them forever for that) is getting properly balance.
On a different topic, would Marrow's insistence that Bumblebee work with other people be considered Strawman Has a Point since they are a team with two other people and had team combinations at one point.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:09:59 AM
No. Marrow didn't think that their styles could work together and was immediately proved wrong by the two of them.
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