Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

Though one could argue that someone who treats murder as a 9-to-5 isn't really much better than someone who treats murder as a hobby.

At the end of the day they both deserve a noose, but I presume Charles means how the protagonist goes about stopping them will be different based on their narratives.

Unless Charles has radically changed his M.O. or started a new series I'm unaware of, his protagonist is A Lighter Shade of Gray Villain Protagonist

Edited by Robrecht on Nov 29th 2020 at 8:55:37 PM

At the end of the day they both deserve a noose, but I presume Charles means how the protagonist heroes goes about stopping them will be different based on their narratives.

Darn terminology.

TBF, if we're talking about The Rules of Supervillainy, Gary often does fight other villains.

In the Rules of Supervillainy, Gary is a Classy Cat-Burglar without the classy element (I think someone described it as "Hudson Hawk with magic"). He's trying to rob the rich and give to himself when he constantly buts heads with much-much worse people ranging from Cthulhu cultists to the Red Skull Expy types. Which, of course, makes him either an Antihero or Antivillain.

A larger point is that there's a range of people types involved in bad guys and that keeping that sort of range helps make more interesting stories. Characterization Marches On means that you get a lot of variety in action but it's interesting to have some villains who are truly completely evil and others who are possessed of some rules and even others who will do really bad things but mostly under duress.

In Marvel you have the Red Skull, Apocalypse, and Bullseye for pure evil and yet can tell more interesting stories with villains who are Punch-Clock Villain types like in The Superior Foes of Spiderman. The Rogues vs. Joker and Lex Luthor.

I was thinking about this while watching the new Alex Rider series and remembering the books where it's a YA James Bond EXPY. A thing the books dealt with was quite a few of the villains are Complete Monster types but a number of mooks prove to be Would Not Hurt A Child and end up turning on their masters when they'd otherwise happily murder for their paycheck.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 30th 2020 at 2:33:47 AM

Oh, you can have an interesting story with Bullseye, as well. Just pit him against some superhuman individual or Taskmaster/Maya Lopez and watch him get humiliated.

Oh, sorry, did I say 'interesting'? I meant 'cathartic'.

Probably been mentioned before but Bullseye once came across a rather obscure hero called American Eagle. It did not end at all well for Bullseye.

Back in the Sixties, there was also a difference in how villains operated. The Green Goblin killing Gwen Stacy resulted in him being killed in return, albeit Spider-Man didn't have to do the job himself.

The dissonance of the Complete Monster villains meeting horrible demises versus more sympathetic ones (albeit not too sympathetic) getting arrested left the dissonance a little better.

Yeah, and later on he was killed, brought back as a vegetable, blinded.....and now he is back to normal.

Because Joker Immunity can do that.

In the original Frank Miller story, Bullseye actually had a beginning, middle, and end to his arc. He started as a cruel and evil man but ended up suffering a Humiliation Conga Line that made him a deranged serial killer, made worse by brain damage.

Daredevil flat out tries to kill him and Bullseye "merely" ends up crippled for life.

Part of what Frank complained about was that Bullseye and Elektra basically both had stories that ended and they got revived because of their popularity.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 30th 2020 at 4:18:17 AM

I do think the bank-robbing super villains seem like an outdated concept for a bunch of reasons:

1. Bank robbery as a crime is in decline:

https://www.npr.org/2013/02/06/171310933/bank-robberies-on-the-decline-as-risk-outweighs-the-rewards

At this point bank robbery is a high-risk low reward style and someone like Shocker can be foiled by a teller putting an ink pack-in with the money, as he would getting foiled by Spider-Man. A hacker with a laptop can steal from banks more effectively than 10 costumed supervillains. There are a ton of legal and illegal ways to make money that are more effective than bank robbing.

2. No one likes banks since 2008, the banks likely rip off people more than supervillains who rob the banks and smart bank robbers go out of their way not harm civilians because they do not murder rap. A bank robbery could still work as an intro action scene before the main plot starts, but it's hard to justify the bank robber as the main villain in a longer story arc, a superhero should be protecting lives, not the insurance rate the banks are paying.

I also think the Rogues work because someone like Captain Cold is given redeeming qualities, take those away and the group loses something.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 30th 2020 at 6:51:26 AM

Supervillains who are bankers? ;p

I guess if the supervillains are using the banking profits to fund some supervillain project.

Wouldnt that just be a sub category of super rich corrupt businessmen type villians who use the profits from their businesses to fund their super villainy?

I mean Luthor set a precedent for those types

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Nov 30th 2020 at 7:12:24 AM

TBF, if you're a supervillain, the risks are somewhat lower, provided you don't run into a superhero.

Depends on the supervillain, frankly, any super-villain can have their take ruined by a teller putting an ink pack in with their money, banks go out of their way to ensure bank robbers go home empty-handed, to deter bank robbers. The reward is still low.

Also realistically, most public not bulletproof supervillains would be dead in a year, we have seen cops be really trigger happy in real life. I suppose that should be filed under willing suspension of disbelief.

I do think despite the cops being kinda useless in comics, they are still more idealized in comics that doesn't always reflect real life.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 30th 2020 at 7:22:59 AM

Though even the ones who aren't bulletproof tend to have other means to avoid bullets or to ensure they get the drop on cops.

Also, it'd be a pretty brave teller to do anything that might attract the ire of a supervillain.

Keep in mind that one of the reasons the risks are higher for real life bank robbers is because, in real life, most bank robbers are dumb as shit and no more durable than any other human being.

Yes, there are reasons for the bank robber villain to go out of style - mainly because foiling a bank robbery isn't main plot material - but "it's not worth it in real life" isn't a good reason at all.

Edited by M84 on Nov 30th 2020 at 11:25:01 PM

Does someone like Trapster or Shocker have a defense against police snipers? Rhino is bulletproof, Sandman is bulletproof, but the guys with just tech usually are not. Shocker and Trapster are supposed to be smart, they should come up with something better, really only the dumb villains should be robbing banks at this point.

The ink pack stuff is standard procedure for banks, I am not sure how greed-based super villains would want a murder rap just to get even with a teller. Unless an evil psychopath villain is robbing banks that day, most wouldn't think that would be a good use of their time.

Edited by Overlord on Nov 30th 2020 at 7:29:35 AM

Police snipers take time to get set up. A supervillain tends not to take very long to rob a bank - if only to avoid getting caught by a superhero.

Besides, supervillains also can just bypass the tellers and go for the safe deposit boxes directly.

It should also be noted that Trapster and Shocker don't rob banks that often anyway. They make their money working for other villains or evil corporations or criminal organizations. Robbery is something they do if they've fallen on hard times and can't find work.

Even supervillains have it rough in this economy.

Edited by M84 on Nov 30th 2020 at 11:32:25 PM

They could get snipped during stand-offs with superheroes or if the cops surround the bank they are at, most real bank robbers try to go in and out, but it doesn't' always work that way.

It's why Breaking Bad is about the drug trade rather than bank robbing, drug trade is where the real money in terms of criminal enterprises.

Maybe make one of these greed-based villains similar to Henry Hill, where they become more successful in a criminal organization and become worse people due to being more successful as criminals

Edited by Overlord on Nov 30th 2020 at 7:35:52 AM

Guys like Shocker aren't bulletproof, but your average guy with a gun isn't really equipped to handle them. Heck, even The Punisher got caught off guard and that guy's more competent than the average cop.

Sure, supervillains can get sniped, I guess, but they don't really pull out the snipers on every guy who does something bad.

Wouldn't supervillians with more destructive powers just directly target bank safes and vaults, and make a run for it instead of threatening cashiers?

If only they were legalized already. I think most politicians still don't realize what a huge blow that would be towards organized crime, sadly.

Speaking of it, and to maybe get away a bit from superheroes again, has there ever been a movie highlighting the fact that criminalization of substance is what gives Cartels power?