Trope Pantheons: Reworking the Persona rules.

I feel like the following of us need a thread to discuss what to do about the whole Pantheonic Personas deal and I don't want it to bog down the general discussion thread.

I may have gone overboard with the TV World Personas, Camilla may have helped with that, and HotmanX32 thinks all this is going too far. But I don't think we can keep discussing this in just P Ms. So I set up a thread so we can get our messages across clearer between ourselves (and safind who's recently joined this conversation). Any other tropers are free to join in.

So, here's an incomplete recap.

Among Camilla's protest against the whole idea while talking with me about thiswere:

and

safind and Hotman proposed these new rules.

• Rule 1: The Enemy Within, has to be a canon enemy within
• Rule 2: This system can work for up to Intermediate Gods. Anything more and they cannot obtain a Persona
• Rule 3: The requirement for negative emotions to manifest should be if they manifested in a physical way in canon.
• Rule 4: Brainwashing and Demonic Possessions do not count as eligible Persona material
• Rule 5: Aftereffects of Rule 4, if they get bad enough, are filed under the conditions for Rule 1.
• Rule 6: Enemy Withouts depend on how they were handled in their home canons. If the Enemy Without becomes an independent character, they cannot be used for Personas.
• Rule 7: Alternate versions and clones do not count as Persona material.
• Rule 8: If peace was made with the Enemy Within/Split Personality, then it cannot be used as a Person and must follow that universe's rules.
• Rule 9: This method cannot be counterspread to non P-4 deities. All Persona/SMT deities must follow the rules present in their own games

I was like:

And safind (who gave the rules to Hotman, who in turn sent it to me) was like:

Safind has an in-universe justification for these limits. "If Philemon gives too much of them (Personas), it destabilizes reality because of the different rules of each individual universe. While the Pantheon may be more flexible, how these powers and rules interact is still delicate."

And I think I can agree with that.

As for the rest of the discussion…, um, can you guys bring them up again for the rest of the class?

edited 11th May '18 7:36:33 PM by nightelf37

I get that not all deities are perfect, but all I'm saying is that there are other ways to have face their problems besides going into the TV World and accept Shadows. I'm sorry, but even when it's limited to every Lesser deity and lower, it just won't accomplish the crossover nature it is supposed to be.

I talked to nightelf about how others gained Personas but except for P5, the TV World is usually the way to go to fight the Persona. Unless we create some holy ground where shadows exist, then that's what we're sticking to.

Now many gods that were given deities, I can give Jeff Hardy slack (since wrestlers fighting imitators never turns out well) and I can just have him be dunked in the Lake of Reincarnation his BROKEN brother has so that goes out.

Marik is uncertain; he himself defeated his dark side and his darkness was manifested after all the rage and hate over the Pharaoh's legacy. He should at least get something from this mess.

Yuki Jojima is also a concern; yes Fourze gave the finishing blow, but it was Yuki (thanks to some help from her friends) that had to state that she was more powerful of the two.

And if 'canon' comes into play, Rarity is gone one Persona (as it came from the comics) and Celestia might also lose hers since Daybreaker manifested from a nightmare of Starlight's (Although the fact that Daybreaker interacts with Celestia suggests that Celestia herself knows about her inner turmoils and Celestia did defeat Daybreaker all by herself)

This is gonna be something we're gonna be debating for a while huh?

Good thing we have a thread. This way, I can see what both of you are saying, and you two can see what each other and I want to say.

Again, I don't think ALL those restrictions need to be that much if their use is restricted anyway. It feels redundant. I might be a Broken Record repeating that.

As for removing Personas, here's what I can figure out from what we do have in the list.

CMC: BY those rules, they're out. This episode was very reminiscent of a Shadow confrontation. Camilla added Personas for the other two.
Princess Luna: I used this as a reasoning. And Camilla's same reasoning as Celestia, I think.
Samurai Jack: Okay to remove.
Black Mage: Just for gimmick purposes. As well as after seeing the Castle of Ordeals/ Remove?
Cecil and Kain: Okay to remove.
Opa-Opa: I don't know what I was thinking.
Jaden: I think he still qualifies.
Martin Walker: Remove him?
HeartCatch Precures: I haven't actually watched the series, but I saw the Mirage Pretty Cure as counting as Enemy Within in the Characters page. So they still qualify.
Knight Gundam: Haven't watched the series, so I don't know.
Carly: Murky subject.
Ness: His trip to Magicant features Ness's NIghtmare, which I though qualifies.
Plague Knight: I think he still qualifies.
Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: Remove?
Marked Ninja: Remove.
Yamato: From a certain ending route where Hibiki and co. end up facing versions of themselves.
Gentaro: This is up to Camilla.
Dom Cobb: Remove?
Sam Vimes: I don't really know what I was doing with this. Granny Weatherwax: Same here.
Willow Rosenberg: Same here.
The Panda King: I think you can remove this?
Moist von Lipwig: I saw a made-for-TV movie where he's haunted by his crimes.
The Human Child: This video got me inspired. Megamind: A sequel features him fighting an AI version of his old self, pre-Heel–Face Turn, so I figured it technically qualified.
Iji: Well, this is personal for me, so… I figured she'd go because of the arguments that she's not actually a pacifist concerned her (in-game, she can end up being very technical about it), which is her reason for ascension (she used to represent Pacifist Run). I figured that deep down maybe she knew that, but I thought it might take a Shadow to call her out for her hypocrisy and to break her "reasoning" down. And then after this, she would attempt to be better from now on, and be truer to what a pacifist really is.

• Marik:
• Nanako: In reality, a trip to the TV World wasn't even in the initial plan for the Tales of Life Episode 7: Shattered Illusion. All it was supposed to be is that The Masquerade put over her (i.e. keep Personas secret) gets broken, she gets mad at Yu for hiding it from her and runs off, and then some other things would happen before they eventually make up. Camilla was the one who granted her Persona (given this turmoil conflicting with the love she has for her Big Bro and his friends), and I let her (Camilla).
• Sunset: Will have to be removed under your rules.
• Alphys: All those secrets… they seemed prime material, and because I wanted a Sensor-type Persona-user that wasn't Fuuka, Rise, or Futaba.
• Cosmo: Remove.
• Fighter: I figured he'd somehow make it despite that.
• Shinji Kido: Alt self. Remove.
• Souji Mitsuka: Ehh…
• Ahiru: Remove.
• Flowey: Remove.
• Max Caulfield: She technically faced herself at Episode 5, but the confrontation was interrupted by Chloe.
• The Winchesters: With all the crap they've been through? They'd have so many issues.
• Scott Pilgrim: I don't know, but I know Nega-Scott is a character.
• Tomoyo: Feelings of being powerless (as well as the secret she keeps from Sakura even in canon), I thought it would come to a head. But with Personas being limited to the TV World and Metaverse, I think it's okay to remove.
• Reinhardt: Remove.
• Shield Knight: Umm…read her profile.
• Madeline: Eh, I can remove it and modify Badeline's situation to the Court of the Gods allowing her to manifest outside the mountain.

Wait...I got another idea. What about visitors to the TV World can still face their Shadows, BUT no Persona is earned for them? Would that satisfy you, Hotman?

edited 11th May '18 11:11:56 PM by nightelf37

@Camilla. I believe Yami Marik is in the Pantheon. Obviously, Marik would not be able to get anything out of him (And what would Yami Marik have to offer? The full usage of Ra's effects in a Shadow Game? Viser Des? Juragedo?)

@Nightelf: Good to see revisions are being made to the list. As for Rule #9, Hotman explained to me that each Persona game has a different method of acquiring Personas. As the Persona series is a subset of SMT, my proposal for that rule is that characters ascended from SMT are restricted to how their powers worked in those games.

Yeah I guess you're right that Dark Marik wouldn't give anything. Sucks since Marik fighting his dark side would have given him a boost (if it wasn't for Clover ascending him...)

Aside from that, I can re-work Gentaro's "Persona" as part of being affected by his Alt!side and Limbo's magic (Limbo's magic works on conduits with their dying wish; Alt!Gentaro wanted to live—he was panicking when he was assaulted by the one who caused him a mental breakdown—while Prime Gentaro just wanted to know what happened and why he was killed by Chrysalis!Ryusei)

Not sure if Jack Atlas is banned from Personas or not; after all the vision Carly gave him in ep 56 showed him potentially getting one and all (but again, this is a vision)

And Carly is murky; the dark side was when she was revived by Ascilla piscu but she doesn't get possessed by said hummingbird until later on, and only out of the Immortal's desperation to kill Jack. She became a Dark Signer because of her connection to Jack and Ascilla piscu did coerce her to join the dark side by giving her a "future" where she and Jack ruled an apocalyptic Earth...

edited 11th May '18 11:51:37 PM by Camilla

@safind: So... TV World Personas should never get Kouha, Eiha, Aquas, or Magna skills or something like that?

Also, the only clients from SMT that I have are Kazuya and Naoya from Devil Survivor, and they're likely eligible for removal already.

edited 12th May '18 12:07:29 AM by nightelf37

@Camilla...Why would Jack need a Persona when the YGO-verse now has cheap hard light technology? He can just summon Red Dragon Archfiend and it's various counterparts while riding his D-Wheel. And as I stated, Yami Marik really wouldn't have given Marik a boost even if he wasn't in. At best it's full access to Ra.

@nightelf: If those skills were never available in their origin games, then no.

Okay then Jack and Marik get the chopping board, I concede. And Jack does have his Burning Soul to compensate.

Still, are we in agreement on Carly or no? She plays a role in TC trying to stop Yvetal from burning everyone with Oblivion Wing and I'd rather not just rehash her role from the anime of "Jack tells her to stay away but she disobeys him and ends up getting killed/injured"

Oh and speaking of CMC, how do we justify them using Personas in Limbo? They need some sort of edge and they get sent there during a show in the PWF. The closest I can give them to powers are Garment Grids.

edited 12th May '18 1:05:40 AM by Camilla

@Nightelf yes, that is a satisfactory one. They can go to the TV world, but no Personas can be obtained.

To be honest, I don’t think the pantheon needs a gimmick like this. It’d require a lot of work to find all the characters that fall under this set of rules, and it’s just an attempt to crossover the pantheon with something unrelated.

The same can be said about Pokémon partnerships and Aghanim's Scepter Upgrades (and the latter is going away), or the whole concept of the Pantheon, really.

@Hotman: Now what about the Metaverse? With the new limits, I think it's gonna become less an alternate acquisition service and more of a recruitment station for new members. How much of Persona 5 do you know? Don't bother with the Animation adaptation, by the way.

Remember that only the Phantom Thieves of Hearts have the app and aren't likely to give it to others, not wanting a murderer on it like Akechi was, who had orchestrated the death of Futaba's mother, and murdered Haru's father's Shadow after they stole his heart (which also shot down public opinion on the Phantoms after his mental shutdown).

That said, in one of the profiles, there's a chance that Carmen Sandiego has the app too, but she's known for her impossible thefts, and she's thankfully a pacifist.

edited 12th May '18 9:46:27 AM by nightelf37

Those rules are acceptable to me. I have less of a problem with the Metaverse.

Well, part of the Rebirth story was to help Jason Brody after what he suffered through in the events of the Friendship Asylum. By locking Personas out of the Pantheon proper, that doesn't seem possible, and Camilla and I established why a TV World Trip for him might be a bad idea.

As for clients/recruits, I established criteria for marks based on the crooks the Phantoms faced in canon and came to the following conclusion: a client's catalyst has to be someone who has oppressed them. While that's not technically the criteria the game/wiki posits, I decided to pin it on the rules of Cognition—our (tropers like us) Cognition—affecting the Pantheon.

And I think Camilla's motivation for doing this is to conclude the "broken CMC" arc and "rehabilitate" them. But with Tarot Crusaders needing to change, there ceases to be a point in the Rebirth stories entirely.

The only recruit I could think of is N, but his other reasons (besides to try to understand why Ghetsis became the man that he is) were to not be a burden on his Pokémon and get a Persona out of inspiration for Hareta or something like that. With that reason gone...

Now what other recruits are there left? We had the SAO couple (Kirito and Asuna) (target is Sugou), Team RWBY (separate catalysts), Agatha Heterodyne (special mission: change, not steal, the heart of Klaus Wulfenbach so that he won't prioritize her capture; the Phantoms sort of did a similar alternate operation with Makoto's sister Sae, who was investigating the Phantoms), Lucio (catalyst still pending), and Nathan Ford of the Leverage crew.

Wow. These new rules have made the Phantom Thieves useless! Stealing hearts won't work since Melkor and other Overdeities (as well as the Court) can undo all of that, and they won't kill people. We might have an uprising on our hands, because I'm sure they'd rebel against this unfair situation. Hmm... Maybe that should be the new story? Eh, Camilla?

Hold on a moment. Hotman, what's your REAL reason for this overhaul? Can you provide a reason that pertains to the Pantheon's residents and the whole place, rather than a reason pertaining to tropers going too far?

Just want to iterate again: remember that with Personas being limited to specific areas, does a deity's power level, or any other canon circumstances for that matter, really matter for whether or not they get a Persona? It won't change the rest of the Pantheon as a whole anyway, and with Personas being limited in where they can be summoned, the power balance isn't going to be skewed, which I believe is one of your main concerns. The only changes the Personas would do would be in their character, and nothing else, as far as the Pantheon proper is concerned. Isn't that a GOOD reason why you'd want Personas nerfed?

edited 12th May '18 6:53:53 PM by nightelf37

If we're going Camilla's reasoning for wanting Personas because every deity is not perfect, then that theoretically means everyone in the pantheon gets a Persona, which is absurd logic on her part, and I feel that this whole gimmick is going to overtake everything else in this crossover.

Why the hell does N and the SAO need a Persona? N already has one gimmick with Pokemon. Same with Yu-gi-oh characters as Safind pointed out. RWBY characters have aura and the like. I'm not just talking about nerfing Personas, I'm talking about minimizing them as well. The same also applies to minimizing the recruits.

That... actually makes a lot of sense. The overtaking part, that is. I guess I kinda knew it, but I was too immersed in all the potential stories that I willingly ignored it.

As for the other part, I guess the SAO couple can be ditched. But I'd think, chance for a Persona or no, N would want to find out more about his false father figure, and his Palace (which Camilla and I decided would be an ice kingdom) would be the perfect place. Plus I can experiment with how the rulings of Shadow elements and Pokémon Types can possibly clash.

As for other potential chapters, the "special mission" for Agatha could still work, but who else here has read Girl Genius? I wonder what else...

I'll have to wait for the Tarot Crusaders reboot and everything else Camilla needs to rework before going further.

Not just that, but the Pantheonic Rebellion too. Have to retcon Sayaka's Witch form from becoming a Persona. And does the CMC's first trip to Limbo take place before they got their Personas (in the Pre-Persona Overhaul continuity)?

edited 13th May '18 9:50:26 AM by nightelf37

I agree with night about this all. Let's wait till Tarot Crusaders is finally planned out before we really delve into this mess.

A Persona uprising would be fun though. Definitely a story to ponder...

I think with the reboot means you don't have to stick to who was ascended during the old stories' time periods, right?

Which means these reboots can include the ascended P5 cast, Ryotaro, Starlight Glimmer, and anybody else that's ascended after?

I never said she needed one. Just asking if whether any deities who have ascended before and since them can be included in the rebooted stories. I name-dropped Starlight on a whim because I ascended her.

I think Camilla's also proofreading it. For one, Apple Bloom's name there was written as one word.

edited 14th May '18 2:41:36 PM by nightelf37

Why does Starlight need a Persona?

We could just retcon the detail on Sayaka. And no, I've not forgotten.

Why Are we rebooting Muse Hysteria in it's entirety!? There's no need for the stories to be reworked! Just retcon Yuki's Persona away!

edited 14th May '18 10:34:50 AM by HotmanX32

We're not rebooting but rewriting it. I feel like it could be written better than this.

@Hotman: Oh. Camilla and I also had these in eventual queue for Persona acquisition before all this.

• Marlin (Finding Nemo): Stop.
• The rest of the Mane Six (and Angel Bunny): Under your rules, stop.
• Jack Atlas: Stop.
• Aki Izayoi and Yusei Fudo: Stop. Maybe.
• Tommy Oliver: From a comic story called Shattered Grid, bit it's an AU, so probably stop.
• The Cup Bros.: Pertained to an alternate ending, so maybe stop.

I have an a different list for the would-have-been-Metaverse clients, but I'll post that next page depending on your response here.

For now, here are the rules that I had planned.

Now, Hotman, what should the new procedure end up being? As for the criteria (oppressed), I decided to Hand Wave it as the rules of Cognition, our Cognition as tropers to the Trope Pantheons, allowing this.

I think I'll keep INH in the list and have their repertoire of Personas be those that have been removed to serve as The Artifact.

edited 15th May '18 10:26:22 AM by nightelf37

I'd say the procedures should end up working on a case-by-case basis.

@Camilla: Just don't alter Muse Hysteria's plot. You can change and remove some details, but no severe changes.

edited 15th May '18 3:45:53 PM by HotmanX32

Well, here are the cases we were going to do. They're split betweem Mementos Trips (where the "catalyst" is not a deity) and Palace Heists (when the catalyst is a deity).

• Berserker Iji: MT. Given your rules need me to remove Pacifist Iji from my list, she's out of the running too.
• Jason Brody: PH on Vaas (well, Hoyt was also a choice). Given the CMC will no longer get Personas, things will have to change, and because Camilla thought a TV World trip for Jason might not be a good idea.
• N: PH on Ghetsis. I think he'll want to go anyway, Persona acquisition or no.
• Weiss Schnee: MT, her father Jacques Schnee. Halt.
• Ryotaro Dojima: PH on himself, list like with Futaba Sakura. This would've occurred as a result of him hearing of his daughter's involvement with dangerous stuff, and falling into a coma as a result. But rebooting the CMC's experiences also means rebooting Nanako's experiences too, so it might end up differently.
• Kirito and Asuna: PH on Sugou. Halt as per your rules.
• Quasimodo and Esmeralda: PH on Frollo. Halt as per your rules.
• Blake Belladonna: MT, Adam Taurus. Halt as per your rules.
• PH on Cinder Fall, with Ruby Rose and Jaune Arc as clients. Halt as per your rules.
• Eddy of the Eds trio: MT, his brother. Halt.
• DDLC's Natsuki: MT, her father. Possibly enter her own Palace, since he doesn't technically exist, and see her *.chr. Halt.
• Crystal Gem Garnet (or to be exact, her components Ruby and Sapphire): MT, Blue Diamond. Halt as per your rules. Was gonna do this to complement Amethyst's, as well as have a follow up MT for Pearl, but...
• Agatha Heterodyne: PH on Klaus Wulfenbach. That special mission can still be a go, no Persona needed
• the Freedom Planet protagonists: PH on Lord Brevon. Halt as per your rules. I was going to try and make a record on multiple Persona awakenings. (3, with one getting hers from the TV World instead.
• Lucio: MT, whoever's head of Vishkar (whom Symettra works for). Halt as per your rules.
• Chell: PH on G La DOS. I'm halting this not only due to your rules, but because I think I last remember they've come to an agreement to avoid each other or something, making this pointless.
• Adrien Agreste/Cat Noir: MT, his father Gabriel. Halt as per your rules.

As for the reboot involving the Phantoms, here're all I can think of as allies in Heists. Amy other ideas, Camilla?

• Garrett: He may be all for the stealing (for himself), but he's still a pacifist. Might have tense relations at first, with worries of him stealing behind their backs.
• Carmen Sandiego: Wild Card, after having stolen the Meta-Nav (because she can definitely do that) from one of their number. Also doesn't kill people.
• the Leverage crew: As sort-of mentors for non-Metaverse heists/cons.
• Razputin the Psychonaut: Same Journey to the Center of the Mind abilities and purposes. Of course, I'll have to ascend him first.

edited 16th May '18 8:32:16 AM by nightelf37

There is something I want to include: anyone going for Personas will have to do a trial run by the Phantom Thieves. If the deity passes, they must go through a solo run in the Metaverse and back.

Solo run in the Metaverse? You mean in the Pantheon's Mementos? How is that even going to work? It's too dangerous to go alone, even for the canon group in the final act of the game. That's why they go as a group at all, and I don't think they're the type to do a hazing, since that's what I'm reading from here. Also, the Catalyst part is important for an awakening, someone to shout your defiance to.

Come to think of it…no, I still have to wait on your evaluation on how should a Metaverse Persona awakening go.^* I'm gonna have both Ijis awaken their Personas in the Metaverse. Only reason I didn't for the Pacifist one was because I had given a TV World one and it was before Persona 5 came to my attention. I think around the time I reworked her profile, it was just Futaba, Morgana, and Yusuke who were ascended.

I'm questioning if you've even watched an LP of Persona 5 (I can't contest if you've even played it since neither have I).