Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

This entry from the Pokémon page seems to argue against itself. Should we delete the entire entry or just the counterexample?

• The main villain of the Gold & Silver chapter, Pryce, aka the Masked Man. The reader is clearly supposed to find him sympathetic since he lost his two Lapras to a freak accident, and it's made obvious that he truly cares about his Pokémon in general. That doesn't really justify kidnapping children to be forced to work for him, brainwashing a group of criminals, funding a program that forces evolution (which is implied to be painful), and attempting to murder 2 minors. He can easily come across as a huge jerkass because of all the things he did just to reunite with them instead of just accepting a loss that wasn't really his (or anyone else's) fault and doesn't even try to go about it in a less extreme manner. The only mitigating factors are that one chapter shows that he does care about the children he captured but due to his frigid emotional state he can't express this except in ice sculptures, and that he seems to feel guilty about all that he's done, as he attempts to strangle himself after it appears to have all been for nothing.

So, I removed this from YMMV.The Stepford Wives:

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Roger's more conservative partner is constantly embarrassed by the overly flamboyant and camp Roger. It's not by accident, either; Roger is going out of his way to embarrass his partner and make his political career a joke. When he decides to have Roger go through with the procedure, he's seen as being the bad guy but it's easy see why he was driven to said point.

I removed it because it felt like a big stretch to use that to justify brainwashing your partner because they embarrassed you. However, I am now thinking that I should have brought it here first. Thoughts? Should I add it back or keep it cut?

Yeah, maybe if there's evidence of that being a common reaction in the fandom it might fit.

Because by itself...well, your partner not respecting your career and intentionally trying to embarrass you are reasons to, you know, stop seeing them, not brainwash them into compliance. I have to imagine for most audiences that would be crossing a line into unsympathetic territory.

There's certainly a type of person who'd sympathize, though.

I looked around online and I couldn't find anyone calling him sympathetic. I mean I found a bunch considering the wives unsympathetic but none who find that specific character sympathetic.

Then chop.

Nanny McPhee

I found this on the Brown children.

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: Naughty as the Brown children are, it's hard not to feel sympathy for these motherless children with a workaholic father, no friends, and the threat of a Wicked Stepmother looming on the horizon...
  • It's also implied that none of their previous nannies ever cared to get to know them individually.

How is this "unintentional"? I'm pretty sure all the points listed are SUPOSED to make us feel bad for the Brown kids.

This sounds more like it should be under Jerkass Woobie.

Agreed that it doesn't fit and the kids can be seen as Jerkass Woobie.

The Lion Guard's YMMV page has this Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Simba and Nala come across as this for putting the task of leading the lion guard onto their son while he is only a cub. Yes, it is a preschool show and the premise is to appeal to younger kids, so the lion guard itself is made up of children. But taking into account that Simba and Nala are putting the massive burden and responsibility of protecting the Pridelands and leading the guard on Kion while he was only a cub, without proper training or preparing him for such a role, does not reflect well on them as parents. Effectively speaking, Kion was stripped of his childhood for the most part, having to focus on his new responsibilities as guard leader. Said role involves him being placed in a ton of life-threatening situations daily (including the various predators he must fight against) and has a mountain of responsibility and pressure put on his back. While he has the Roar to aid him in times of need, the fact Simba and Nala are willing to put their young son's life at risk like this routinely is rather jarring, especially given how protective of their daughter the films depicted them to be. Further adding salt to the wound is the fact that, while they are supportive of Kion, they are rarely around to actually help him and are routinely gone whenever danger shows up, and at times effectively outsource some of their own responsibilities to their children.

To add some context here, the troper who wrote this entry apparently considers Simba and Nala to be abusive parents who forced their son to become a child soldier and care very little about him. This interpretation of their characters has already been debunked in the "Is This An Example?" thread, where it was determined that they don't fit the criteria for abusive parents, and most of the edits Biohazzard made (to The Lion Guard's main page, character page, and YMMV page) pushing this idea have already been deleted. This is the last one left (except for the show's fridge page and headscratchers page), so I thought I would get a second and third opinion here about whether or not this entry should be cut.

Edited by TheCoolKat1995 on May 2nd 2024 at 11:55:30 AM

I can refute it right away by asking if we're meant to "sympathize" with them. There's nothing to feel sorry for narratively.

I think the sympathetic part might be the effort to protect the pride from danger, but I doubt if this is more than the typical Fridge Horror associated with being a Kid Hero.

I guess my thought is, if there's no actual discourse or even any evidence that we're supposed to feel one way or another about Simba and Nala, it doesn't really count. Like they're really just putting the plot in motion; it doesn't seem like something that the actual show would even dwell on.

This is a preschool show, so the writers are going to find a way to put a Kid Hero front and center.

Yeah I don't think they count. We aren't really supposed to feel either way about them.

That and the entry just feels like complaining.

Well, the consensus here is pretty clear, and the entry in question will be cut.

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

Thank you for your good work.

I found this on YMMV.Dead Boy Detectives 2024

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic:The audience is supposed to sympathise with Crystal for all the problems she faces due to the demon that has tormented her and encourage in her mission to recover her memories. Unfortunately many fans don't feel sympathetic to her plight due her of centering around her personal goals rather than trying to accommodate to others, being inconsiderate of Charles's romantic feelings, often withholding important information until most are forced to discover it, and her reckless actions that endanger the lives of Jenny and Niko.

I am not sure this was accidental. Like that main goal of her finding her memories. It results in her remembering that she was like a horrible person. So, I think these were like foreshadowing for that and the catalyst to her arc. I am not 100 percent sure though and would like more opinions.

Edited by Bullman on May 2nd 2024 at 7:51:29 AM

It's also just a very poorly written example. The grammar is such a mess that I'm not sure of what some sentences are even saying.

But yes, it sounds like this is Character With Deliberate Flaws and those being listed instead of explaining why the attempts to make her sympathetic failed. I'd know more if I saw the show, but that's the best I can do for now.

Although I kind of think it's early to make this kind of judgment in any case, because the show's only been out for a week.

I tried to clean it up honestly but it was just oddly written to begin with.

Granted, I think characters with intentional flaws can count if they're a botched attempt at a Jerkass Woobie, but that's not as common as these examples would have you believe. At the very least they should say why we're supposed to feel sorry.

Yeah that is another thing. It says we are supposed to feel sorry for her but doesn't really explain why we are.