The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:
"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."
This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.
Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.
2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.
3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.
4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.
Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.
MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM
LORD OF FIRE
This site depicts him as an innocent victim, which he objectively is. The only character whom I ever saw Harry and Dumbledore sympathize with was Morfin, AKA the guy whose dickish actions led to Voldemort's birth. Yeah, he was framed by his nephew and had a terrible dad, but he still hexed Tom Riddle Sr. of his own volition.
Edited by Pyromania101 on Sep 17th 2023 at 11:43:18 AM
RE: Pyromania 101
Yeah, and whilst Morfin's father was implied to be abusive to him as well, Morfin still tortured and kill snakes despite being able to speak to them.
I'll also note, Riddle was rightfully horrified about Morfin nailing the corpse of his pet snake to his front door.
LORD OF FIRE
Bottom line: Tom Riddle Sr. isn't given enough focus to suggest whether we're supposed to feel sorry for him or not, so this very website treats him as the innocent rape victim that he is, whose only "crimes" were being handsome and living close to a family of inbred lunatics, one of whom was desperate enough to brainwash him into being her boy-toy for several months. He was, as his folder describes, a Butt-Monkey Played for Drama. Tommy-boy's mental problems came from his mother's side of the family, while his vast magical potential came from having a non-inbred father.
Edited by Pyromania101 on Sep 17th 2023 at 11:53:59 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'll note a major reason why the articles here describe Tom Riddle in a neutral to positive light is because I cleaned them up in the past.
Originally there were stuff like "Karmic Death", "Lack of Empathy" and "Asshole Victim" in Riddle Sr's character page.
There was even entries in Voldemort's character page, like Turn Out Like His Father, among others, insinuating his Muggle father was why he was evil!
Edited by Monsund on Sep 18th 2023 at 12:04:22 PM
He/Him
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Devil's advocate, but if that's how the books actually portray him then that's how we have to trope it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
LORD OF FIRE
Ah, but they don't, at least not really. Descriptions of him are too vague, and most of them are from Voldemort himself, who's not a reliable source of information. Same goes for Marvolo when the Ministry pressed charges against Morfin for hexing him. The Imperius Curse and the Love Potion were confirmed to be illegal in previous books, which makes him the victim of another crime no matter how you slice it.
RE: War Jay 77
If Riddle was meant to a bad person, he doesn't come across as such. As talked about in a long discussion in the Harry Potter thread:
- Riddle only describes Marvolo Gaunt with a word meaning poor (that Harry Potter and Rowling herself uses). Note Marvolo Gaunt is a Pariah that is Hated by All in Town and is also on the HateSink page for Harry Potter for both his stupidity and abusive tendencies.
- When his girlfriend, Cecilia, refers to the Gaunt home as a hovel and eyesore, also asking him to tear it down, Riddle says its a "cottage" and explains he doesn't own the property.
- Says Morfin Gaunt is said by everyone in the village, as "not right in the head", for his open hostility towards all the Muggles in the village and torturing animals. Its also made clear this is away from earshot of the Gaunt family.
- Is horrified to see a dead snake and comforts his girlfriend over the sight.
- Riddle also makes it clear he's passed by the Gaunt house many times and Morfin is stated to have hexed Riddle in the past.
- Riddle laughs at a undercover Wizard wearing many mismatched outfits including a striped swimsuit. Note even Harry, felt the outfit look ridiculous.
Riddle never badmouthed Merope, only Morfin, and lived in the early 1920s where there was a very firm class division and little mental health awareness.
If anything, he could easily afford to be far meaner, I feel.
If the intention was for Riddle Sr. to come across as an Asshole Victim whom got a Karmic Death, he doesn't come across as one, I feel.
Edited by Monsund on Sep 18th 2023 at 1:54:23 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I mean, full transparency I stopped after Goblet, lmao. I just didn't want us to fall into the trap I sometimes see of focusing on the way the audience feels over how the character is actually written. I wasn't trying to say this was actually true of Riddle.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
RE: War Jay 77
Don't worry.
What is odd is Goblet of Fire describes Tom Riddle Sr. as so mean, not one person attended his funeral.
Hence its jarring that all Riddle Sr. does in the flashback in Half Blood Prince is Poke the Poodle at worst.
Planeswalker
Love potions aren't illegal in the Harry Potter universe... Fred and George openly sell them in their prank shop. They alternate between being Played for Laughs (Ron eating the chocolate meant for Harry) and Played for Drama (Voldemort's conception).
I can see the argument for Tom Sr being Unintentionally Sympathetic. I remember him being depicted as a Jerkass in the books despite the arguments presented here and I seem to remember a tone of condemnation in Half-Blood Prince towards him abandoning his son (even though he was a victim of rape). The "no one came to his funeral" line is pretty telling of how we're supposed to see Tom Sr. I seem to think Merope was portrayed as pretty sympathetic despite being a rapist because of how horribly abusive her childhood was, and Dumbledore seemed to have pity for her being so deluded as to stop drugging Tom thinking he would genuinely love her after she became pregnant with his son.
Edited by PhiSat on Sep 18th 2023 at 10:25:10 AM
Oissu!
Proud ZZ Top fan
RE: Pyromania 101 and Bullman
This argument seems like a broken record. Having just watched the episode, I can confidently say that Marge was in no way forced to support the campaign, and no, begging does not constitute force, either. Her actions during the third act were reckless. She's like that person who keeps pushing towards something even when smarter minds are warning her not to, and it's only after everything blows up in her face does she realize the consequences; but instead of doing anything herself, she told someone else to do it for her. By what right did she presume to tell Homer to make Burns stop when she was the one who provoked his wrath in the first place?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Even if it was not force and I still contend that it is having just rewatched the episode a few minutes ago but agree to disagree. Is at all widespread within the fandom that she is? I have never heard anyone at all online from Tumblr to Twitter to YouTube call her unsympathetic specifically for that episode. Annoying? Yes. Unsympathetic? No. Though I could be missing something and, at the end of the day, I really don't care if it goes back up or not.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 18th 2023 at 2:10:56 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Proud ZZ Top fan
With a show like The Simpsons, sympathy or lack thereof was usually episodic, keyword being was. Then Flanderization set in and it went all over the place. Even in early seasons, though, some characters displayed traits that were supposed to be sympathetic but just came off as annoying or worse, and then definitively got worse in later seasons. Such things include Lisa becoming a Soapbox Sadie, Marge being a sanctimonious nag, Homer being a dumb jerk, etc. This was a Season 2 episode, but even then, Marge displays a number of traits that got worse later: sanctimony, nagging, expecting arbitrary support, and acting like a victim.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I understand how fans feel about the Flanderization but if we are talking about a specific episode's YMMV then it needs to be a widespread opinion on that episode. I have seen plenty of even season one episodes were the fandom just finds Marge unsympathetic and talk about it constantly. I just haven't heard it very much about this episode. Am I wrong there and am missing a lot of discussion on this episode? That is possible, and if so I would be okay with re-adding.
Edited by Bullman on Sep 18th 2023 at 2:51:52 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Proud ZZ Top fan
Mostly You Tube arguments on videos showing clips from the episode (namely the dinner and Mr. Burns' subsequent Villainous Breakdown), and the show's What An Idiot sub-page. Honestly, the latter needs a little tidying up—not outright erasure, just elaboration.
Edited by Cheapsunglasses on Sep 18th 2023 at 1:54:53 AM
LORD OF FIRE
HP is a series filled with broken aesops, even getting a page listing them. Racism, fate, hypocrisy, slavery, brainwashing, generics, etc. Reign of the Seven Spellblades handled the concepts much better.
We're clearly supposed to think that Riddle is an awful person. But we get "told" that through things others say or imply, we're never actually genuinely shown it. We're supposed to take away the impression he was a bad person... even though, when finally given the chance to actually portray this, Rowling fails. Basically, we know how we're supposed to view these characters, but whether Rowling actually succeeds in portraying them the way she thinks she did is very YMMV.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I concur adding Riddle Sr. to Unintentionally Sympathetic
Edited by Mariofan99 on Sep 20th 2023 at 12:33:05 PM
I have no objection there.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yeah I am okay with adding him.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
- Tom Riddle Sr., the father of Voldemort, is described in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire as such a nasty snob that not one person in his town would mourn him. But when Tom Riddle is finally introduced in a flashback in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, all Riddle does is privately tell his girlfriend that the abusive Pariah, Morfin, is "not right in the head", that Morfin's father, Marvolo, is poor, and laugh at a disguised wizard for wearing what are obviously mismatching garments. Riddle also shows standards by being openly horrified over seeing Morfin's murdered snake, comforting his girlfriend over the sight. While Riddle does run away from a pregnant Merope and never check on her or his son with her, this is because Merope forcibly assaulted and brainwashed him with a Love Potion, kidnapping Riddle from his family and fiancee. It's also easy to see Riddle's later supposed nastiness as a result of Merope ruining his life. All in all, it is hard to buy Pottermore's assertion that Voldemort "inherited his father's callousness".
As I'm worried the above bullet could be too long, I could also break it down like this.
- (What the narrative says about Tom Riddle Sr.)
- (Why he doesn't come across as an extremely cruel snob.)
- (Why he isn't a deadbeat father and had full reason to run as far as possible from a pregnant Merope.)
Tell me what you think?
Edited by Monsund on Sep 20th 2023 at 5:00:33 AM
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
It's also riddled with grammar errors. There are way too many commas.
I was told to bring this up here
; these are from the YMMV page from The Adventures of Batman & Robin E17 "Lock-Up":
- Unintentionally Sympathetic: Bordering on Strawman Has a Point, Bolton's methods are supposedly brutal, but considering the fact that his "victims" are psychopaths who escape from Arkham with annoying regularity, some viewers wish that Batman and the press would back off and let Bolton give the inmates everything they deserve. However, he ends up losing support when his methods range from brutal to downright sadistic and the fact that Scarecrow was even willing to turn over a new leaf just to get away from Bolton really says a lot.
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: While we are meant to feel bad for the Arkham inmates who are tormented by Bolton, the fact that many of them are guilty of hurting innocent people means that many viewers don't feel particularly bad for them, or even think they deserve to be brutalized.
While the Unintentionally Unsympathetic edit may be justified, depending on how you feel about the particular characters (though it's worth noting that two out of three of the inmates that are tormented by Bolton - Harley and the Ventriloquist - are among the more sympathetic villains in the show, while no mention is made of Bolton even trying to mess with the more outright cruel villains like Joker - plus Arkham is technically a mental hospital whose purpose is to rehabilitate its inmates), the Unintentionally Sympathetic edit - along with the Strawman Has a Point edit that is also on the page - argues against itself near the end (it starts out acting like Bolton didn't really do anything wrong, only to then change course and admit that he probably went too far, and thus wasn't truly an example of this trope). The use of Deconstructed Trope doesn't help.
Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Sep 22nd 2023 at 4:02:23 AM
RE: Pyromania 101
I don't see anything in the text with Harry and Dumbledore sympathizing with Riddle either.