Insomniac's Spider-Man

There's a line where Peter calls Rhino his "second-favorite Russian" and I am like 80% certain that was referring to Kraven.

Well Kingsley does things differently than Norman so their pretty distinct.

Plus it makes Goblin Wars fun especially if Kingsley’s just chilling from Cancun while some lackey does the heavy lifting.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 31st 2018 at 5:54:29 AM

Hobgoblin is underrated and deserves more appearances in Spider-Man stuff.

The way Norman is set up here, being Harry's dad and being the co-creator of Venom, the Greater-Scope Villain behind the origins of Dr. Octopus, Mr. Negative, and Miles Morales, I tend to think that he won't become the Goblin until the third game. And considering what they set up, the only question is will the goblin be Green or Red? He basically feels like end of series boss material. But on the other hand, we haven't had a classic Green Goblin boss fight in any Spidey game since 2002, when Spider-Man: The Movie came out and battling the goblin on a glider as he flies and bombs across Manhattan feels like it should be made for an open-world console sandbox. So I feel that Green Goblin should show up next game. They can do the mystery thing...Norman has been discredited, and ruined as mayor and is basically lying low. Then the third game you can do Venom, and then you can bring Norman back as the Red Goblin.

So once that's set up, you can have all the other villains intersect in main and sidemissions. Sandman is like Clayface, awesome powers but no personality...I hope we have a boss fight similar to The Spectacular Spider-Man where he becomes this floating and moving sandbank in the Hudson river and you have Spider-Man fighting a beach. So just pair him up with a bigger bad figure and you don't need to do story work with that guy. Mysterio could basically be a Riddler-like figure.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Dec 31st 2018 at 5:56:46 AM

I was mostly curious about those who are not mentioned as existing already (And thus could "originate" in the sequel). Lizard, Mysterio, Chameleon and Sandman are all mentioned as having fought Spidey already.

I'd also put Hydro-Man as a fairly minor villain. His most prominence is that he was used instead of Sandman in the 90s show coz Sandman was being saved for a movie planned to be directed by James Cameron.

in the 90s Animated Series, Hobgoblin is actually the oriignal Goblin, with Osborn taking inspiration from him later in the series to become the green Goblin.

...Thats not what Greater Scope Villain is though. The game doesn't set up Osborn as a bigger threat to the world than Ock or Li.

Edited by Ghilz on Dec 31st 2018 at 10:00:09 AM

Underrated, what are you going on about?

Hobgoblin is undoubtedly one of the most recognizable from Spider-Man's rouge gallery. I mean, I still agree he should be in more video games regardless, but he doesn't feel under rated.

Edited by agent-trunks on Dec 31st 2018 at 7:07:39 AM

Hobgoblin has appeared in two cartoons. The Fox one used someone who wasn't Roderick Kingsley and the recent Marvel Spider-Man cartoon used Harry Osborn who is also a hero and good guy and then Norman becomes an evil Hobgoblin. Kingsley briefly appeared in Weismann's Spectacular Spider-Man but not as hobgoblin. So it's definitely true that Hobgoblin is underrated. There has never been a faithful version.

Hobgoblin was invented by Roger Stern as a replacement for Norman Osborn during the period he was temporarily dead. Once Norman came back in the '90s and once Dafoe's iconic performance in the first movie cemented him as Top Bad Guy in Spider-Man there was literally no more real need for the Hobgoblin.

He's underrated in that he's a copy of Spider-Man's archenemy. As cool as he might be, Hobgoblin will never shake off being a pale copy of both Green Goblins.

It doesn’t help that most seiries don’t go long enough to adapt the qualities that make him so beloved like franchising super-villain identities.

Maybe because that was a recent development introduced for sake of Divergent Character Evolution? it happened in Slott's run. Wasn't always a part of his character.

Funny story about Spider-Man TAS Hobgoblin: apparently they didn't want to adapt him first. From what I recall, the lead writer didn't even like the character. But things were set up with him being used first and Mark Hamill did the voice, so he wound up being a well-remembered villain.

In comparison, I only really remember Green Goblin from a few scenes.

I don't know. He was always as much a business man as he was a Super Villain.

Norman wanted to be a crime boss, while I got the impression that while Kingsley enjoyed it enough that he didn't just sell the Goblin tech for a pretty penny, it was still just a means to an end of making a rich man richer.

He doesn't even like getting his hands dirty: guy was notorious for sending in body doubles and the like. So he takes those two points and says ''instead of risking my neck as a villain, why not make other dudes villains and get rich that way?

I can see it.

I need other words he is a character who works best in comics and doesn't have enough to translate to other mediums...

Here's the interview about the TAS thing.

He works in a setting that has experiance & history.

In worlds where superheroes have been a thing for a long time, he’d have more opportunity for business.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 31st 2018 at 8:10:14 AM

Forgot to reply, but Chameleon is mentioned in game as existing (Spidey suspects him of being the Fake Spider-Man at first).

There’s zero reason why Hobgoblin wouldn’t work in other mediums, as there’s nothing about him at all that’s print specific. That he hasn’t yet, and hat he for some reason couldn’t possibly are two different things. I’d Hammerhead can work in this game in bare bones DLC, Hobgoblin can certainly work in a full story mode.

IIRC, Spectacular was just about to use him when Hollywood politics killed the show. They were even setting up the twin brothers thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 31st 2018 at 10:23:36 AM

Roderick Kingsley intentionally saw himself as Norman 2.0 in the comics. That situation depends specifically on Norman's "death" and disappearance. I guess the end of S-2 Spectacular could potentially allow them to replicate a version of that but if you are going to introduce Norman and the Goblin and set him up as the bad guy, introducing Kingsley would work as best as a Red Herring.

The whole idea of him making and marketing supervillain identities is also comics' specific. That CAN work in the games but again there are problems. See Kingsley markets and designs the roles of minor villains. Not major ones. And having Kingsley be behind the designs of say Vulture, Electro, and others kind of cheapens other iconic villains in favor of some guy most people won't know. I mean the idea of one bad guy behind all the mooks is usually taken by Norman Osborn in Chapter One, Ultimate Spider-Man, The Spectacular Spider-Man and people object to that for basically making multiple villains poor shadows for one. Spider-Man PS4 dodges that by making it a Gambit Pileup, Norman is doing it all for Venom, which is why he Frankenstein'd Martin Li. Mr. Negative created his plan independently but then in the middle Dr. Octopus contacted him and then plotted out his own agenda. All of them and Norman are working against each other.

...The other thing is that the idea of Roderick Kingsley as this cultivated mastermind is essentially a product of a Fix Fic by Roger Stern. The Hobgoblin left behind a huge Continuity Snarl in The '80s when multiple writers in different teams spun wheels on a story that went off rails. And the guy to blame for that was ultimately Stern himself. Stern created the Hobgoblin originally without any idea who it was. Then a few issues in realized it was Kingsley. He planned a long mystery but left before revealing the secret. He told Defalco but Defalco pointed out the whole "twin brother" thing wasn't properly set up by him and Kingsley was barely known to readers. So Stern told him to go ahead and do what he needed to. Ideally Stern should have ended the mystery himself when he realized his time was coming up.Basically the idea people have of the Hobgoblin has nothing to do with the character who appeared in The '80s and basically part of Stern's salvage gig around the middle of The '90s. The Fox Animated show didn't have access to that.

Even if that wasn't an extreme oversimplification of a character whose been around for far longer than a single story, it's still not a very good point against using him. Martin Li was a criminal who was pretending to be a good person in the comics. This game pretty much completely changed the minutiae and backstory of the character get at the center of what makes him interesting and unique on his own, and it worked wonders.

As was mentioned, there have even been adaptations that used him before Goblin and worked out pretty well anyway.

Well, for one, this is the exactly what the current game did for Ock, so there clearly isn't a problem with that plot you're talking about in and of itself. Though, as I elaborate below, that's not quite the actual plot connected with Kingsley in the first place.

Kingsley, in the comics, is largely known for creating what is essential a cartel centered around the Hobgoblin name - similar in essence to what the original Red Hood was about in the Batman comics, but on a non-minor character - he leased out the Hobgoblin name and equipment in exchange for money and power while he manipulated things without ever needing to actually put the suit on except for a few times, and controlled the name by setting up scapegoats and patsies to keep the capes off his tail. He's basically a walking superhero mystery plot, and the world could always use more of those.

For a third, and this is just some general advice, the idea that a character shouldn't be adapted because the audience doesn't already know who they are never holds much water, and belief in it generally leads in poor directions (overreliance on things the audience already knows is one of the reasons DC has had such problems creating their), and if you believe it, it's something I sincerely suggest you drop. Audiences accept characters they see: them not knowing the character already always becomes irrelevant the moment the character is introduced to them in a way that makes an impact.

So? It's 2019. That was one story from thirty years ago, and the character (not to mention other characters who have used the name) has gotten quite a bit of use since then.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 31st 2018 at 11:07:53 AM

As I mentioned in the paragraph above, the idea of Roderick Kingsley specifically as the Hobgoblin dates to the mid-'90s, to this miniseries Hobgoblin Lives by Roger Stern (a very good writer, one of the best on Spider-Man but I have to say his Hobgoblin stuff has dated, Revenge of the Green Goblin is way way better). The original Hobgoblin in The '80s was a mess of Red Herring where multiple characters were framed, reframed, made Red Herring and so on...with on some occassions, characters like Jason Macendale, and Richard Fisk made into the Hobgoblin, until one character Ned Leeds was revealed to be one...and that too after his death. The reason for that is because behind-the-scenes relations broke down between writers and editors and they engaged in one-upmanship and d—k measuring contests about who the Hobgoblin should be. The mystery dragged on so long people stopped caring, and it took Peter and MJ's marriage to get new audiences back. And to be honest on re-reading, the mystery of who the Hobgoblin was, the flurry of red-herring and multiple characters may be being Hobgoblin operating simultaneously was on the whole more entertaining than Stern's Fix Fic, even if in continuity terms the latter plugs holes thoroughly.

And in any case, the game is setting up Norman Osborn as the main villain of the entire series (let's assume a trilogy at the least). No one has ever argued that Roderick Kingsley is a better goblin than Norman.

And again, so? Not only was that story thirty years ago, whether it was too long for your liking doesn't necessarily have to matter for an adaptation, which could by all means make it as long or as short as the writers want to.

This is a world where a infamously panned story can make for one o the MCU's most successful movies, and where the Clone Saga can have a sequel and not be the worst. And Hobgoblin has far fewer of the problems those two have by virtue of not being a concept has at all abandoned or distanced from since by the franchise - you keep inflating that one storyline and its faults as if its the only thing that could ever be important about the character and that the story itself has to be adapted one to one such that the faults cannot be, but that doesn't make much reasonable sense.

Nothing about what you've pointed out about the story makes it difficult to adapt: the plot itself is ultimately very basic - red herrings are a fictional staple, twists can be condensed into the essential aspects, writer indecision can be excised and ironed into smoother plot progression.

Neither films nor games are any stranger to mystery plots. It'll be fine.

Why is that relevant at all? It's not a competition, and it's not like there's only allowed to ever be one Goblin in the entire franchise.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 1st 2019 at 4:56:39 AM

I liked the “Norman created the Goblin even if he wasn’t the first to go on a glider” thing from 90’s Spidey, but a good part of me wonders if that was because Hobgoblin was Mark Hamill.

Mark Hamill is like the Sean Connery of voice overs. He just makes everything work. I actually think that his most underrated turn in the DCAU is Solomon Grundy who he voiced in a few episodes and he elevated that character a lot.

Green Goblin is a very hard character to do right. You have to make someone who is both Luthor and Joker and effective and charismatic as both. The Spectacular Spider-Man did it, and that to me is the most complete version of Goblin, even if my favorite is absolutely Willem Dafoe (I tend to read Goblin's lines in comics in his voice). I am actually worried about Insomniac's Norman Osborn. I can buy him as Luthor, or a sympathetic one...but I don't know if this Norman can go Joker. To be the Goblin you need to have a sadistic sense of humor, an unbridled appetite for violence, an utter lack of fashion sense, unpredictability, and a bottomless well of spite and hatred. A desire not to merely kill Spidey and his loved ones, but to destroy his hope and spirit in the process. That's what comics (classic and Ultimate) and movie Goblin have in common. Or maybe they will make Green Goblin more like the Arkham Scarecrow, whose costume (with that conical hood and those gloves and gadgets actually kind of does like one of the goblins) who combined the scientific detachment and cruelty, with a sardonic wit that actually made him quietly charismatic.

The Hobgoblin is interesting because Roger Stern saw him as Green Goblin but not insane...the thing is if you read Lee-Ditko Spider-Man you will see that the original version of Norman and Goblin weren't insane either. That came after that. And Weisman's Spectacular which shows a smart Norman compartmentalizing both sides of his life is very accurate to that. So again that shows why Hobgoblin was so fundamentally redundant.

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Jan 2nd 2019 at 7:41:54 AM

So I just started the game the other day and I’m at the part where Shocker Breaks out however I’ve gotten sidetracked doing the Oscorp missions

You mean research station missions. The Oscorp missions IIRC come a little after Shocker.

Anyway, you are in for a treat. It's an awesome game. You have any questions about controls and so on, please be free to ask. We'll be careful about spoilers but you should also be careful because some details and so on may still be tossed out, so be cautious in how you browse...

Edited by Revolutionary_Jack on Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:19:26 AM