The U.S. Culture(s) thread

Sharing a language is like two roommates sharing a fridge—squabbles over how to use it are pretty much inevitable.

No, it really isn't.

Imagine if I started typing in Wenglish. That would give people a good laugh.

And that reminds me of those heady days when I lived with a housemate who couldn't stand people using the term 'fridge'. It was 'refrigerator', thank you very much. That was always a fun one. Even now, years after I last saw them, I occasionally catch myself saying 'refrigerator' when 'fridge' will do and I sound like a complete pillock in the process.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 16th 2020 at 8:35:00 PM

Half of language exists for the purpose of demarcating in-group boundaries. The fact that out-group people can't understand it, or even get annoyed by it, is a feature, not a bug. That's why by the time grown-ups figure out what the teens are saying to one another, they change it up again. Something similar goes on with respect to international boundaries—the proper use of certain words and phrases is supposed to be restricted to members of your own community. That's why "Americanisms" exist—it gives us something in common, that the rest of you can't share. Human nature being what it is, this is on-going process that will likely never end.

And remember, English isn't a language so much as three languages in a Totem Pole Trench that jump other languages in dark alleys and steals their vocabulary....

A lot of American "English" words are loanwords or stolen from Mexican Spanish and Native American languages - see our place names or words like moose, adobe, etc.

Sadly the assimilation went one way until recently - all immigrants and non-English speakers were "supposed" to learn English. Until the 90's there were classes to "lose your foreign accent". And yes, teachers disciplining kids who didn't speak English was a thing for years.

And by "recently" I mean when the cases started to be won in the 70's and 80's overturning English only.

Edited by TairaMai on May 16th 2020 at 6:41:15 PM

Yes, British English has adopted some words from Native American languages as well. Obviously, far fewer, but English definitely likes absorbing words from other languages.

• What the US calls a 'moose' is, in British English, called an 'elk'.
• What the US calls an 'elk' is, in British English, called a 'wapiti'.

British English sticks with its Germanic inheritance in the elk's naming (other non-English European languages also call it an elk). So, 'moose' is very much an adoption of local languages that never made it back to Europe.

The 'wapiti' name is a Native American loan-word that has been exported back to Europe. It's used for the Eurasian forms of the species, so there are wapiti in both North America and Eurasia. The word it displaced was 'maral' (so it used to be known as the maral deer before the Native American word took over). The reason the wapiti got called an 'elk' is because early European settlers of North America got it confused with the elk/moose.

Unfortunately, that's very much a part of the grand tradition of English history. It began with suppression of the native languages of Britain and Ireland: the English made it illegal for the celtic languages to be spoken, which is why Welsh, Gaelic, Irish and Manx are struggling so much now, and is why other celtic languages (such as Cornish and Cumbric) went extinct.

In a bid to circumvent the Henry VIII law making it illegal for Welsh people to speak, worship or conduct legal matters in Welsh, Welsh academics took it upon themselves to convert the Bible into Welsh. The 1588 Welsh Bible saved the language and, because it was done according to Welsh literary tradition, it saved some of our literary traditions as well.

Not every language the English attacked has been that lucky. But, even with this, Welsh is still fighting an uphill struggle to survive. Wales was also seeing children being disciplined by teachers for speaking Welsh. They'd even be disciplined for having a strong Welsh accent. My mother had hers beaten out of her in grammar school. She didn't even speak Welsh. The other celtic regions of Britain and Ireland have similar stories to tell. All of which will be familiar to non-English speakers in North America.

Wales only gained legal protection for the language in 1967, so the timeline seems similar to what's happened in the Americas.

It's worth mentioning that English-speakers with strong English dialects were also being discriminated against and mistreated, too. There are a lot of people, especially from the north of England, who had to learn Received Pronunciation just to avoid discrimination in the careers they wanted to pursue — not just in broadcasting, but for careers such as lawyers, accounting, science, medicine, teaching and receptionists.

Edited by Wyldchyld on May 17th 2020 at 2:03:54 PM

Yeah, in America, there were no laws per se, there were school district or university/college policies that courses would be English only until all those court cases. As the 80's rolled on, many school districts in border states started to teach Spanish and had bi-lingual courses.

All the uncles, aunts and Karens on Facebook who post "learn English or leave" or "this finger wasn't made to press 1 for English" are not just racist but are waaay out of date. Ever since The '80s, companies have been offering voicemail and documentation in several languages. English as a second language is still very popular adult education and there are large populations of English speaking immigrant populations. Most voicemail menu systems have other languages as an option since The '90s. As someone who works customer service, it's really not a handicap. Hell, I had one job where there were nearly 30 languages supported.

Just don't tell the Karens or your racist Uncle that.

Edited by TairaMai on May 19th 2020 at 12:50:11 AM

Well, maybe they should've cared.

On the one hand, it's because Americans really just don't keep their opinions to themselves. On the other hand, if the other places this friend is in it's likely that he's surrounded by other "slightly racist" folks who think being mean counts as funny.

Like dude, this happening in America isn't the part you should be focusing on.

(This is also just kind of really generic, because there's quite a few places in America where hugely racist shit flies without pushback.)

Edited by AceofSpades on May 19th 2020 at 7:25:27 AM

I’d say your friend should put themselves in the shoes of the people they upset. Slightly racist is still racist, and its not the fault of the person who is upset.

@Ace of Spades

I'm assuming you are alluding to my comment. What I was getting at is it seems to me that Anglo-American civilization have certain features that lead it to extreme forms of behaviors. It's an observation, not a value judgment. Having very rigorous expectations for behavior leads people to go to the other extreme. While it can be part of the party culture, there are party cultures around the world that have very different expectations and outcomes. For instance, I remember, there was a story about Brits going to Spain to party and they wanted to get smashed drunk. Meanwhile, in Spain and other countries where there's more moderation, "going all out" is rarer.

@Kayeka What I'm trying to get at. Is it seems that especially in college there's a "culture of fear" where people are afraid of saying anything that might even hint at being offensive. This leads to some people becoming "ideological racist' as a form of defiance. While in other countries where indifference is practiced there are less intense feelings about these subjects.

Edited by Kratistos on May 19th 2020 at 5:43:16 AM

All the situations I’ve seen where people are afraid to accidentally paint themselves as racists are set up by actual racists or other right-wing nutjobs as an attempt to paint the left as oppressive or otherwise unreasonable. It’s really not hard to not say racist things.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on May 19th 2020 at 8:48:25 AM

I notice you haven't mentioned what exactly your friend said that got him called out as a "casual" racist.

Edited by M84 on May 19th 2020 at 9:01:39 PM

Okay, guy, do we seriously have to explain to you that racism is bad? Well, then allow me to explain "casual racism" to you:

I had this girlfriend once. Chinese descended. Both sets of her grandparents (or maybe just one, I'm not sure any more) were Christians that fled Mao's regime. Her parents met here in the Netherlands, and she herself was born here. She was baptised in a Dutch church, went to Dutch schools, played Dutch sports (field hockey, mostly), studied medicine at a Dutch university, speaks Dutch language without even the faintest trace of an accent other than the region where she grew up, and doesn't speak more than five words of Mandarin. She is the absolute model of model minorities.

And still she had to constantly deal with friends making barbs regarding her heritage, "helpful" store staff addressing her in English, and elderly people assuming she was adopted (one of them even insisting her parents simply hadn't told her yet).

How in the flying fuck do you justify denying them their home country like that? To make them feel "other" even though they are not?

Casual racism is still racism, and maybe your friend should try and reflect on the things they say a bit more.

Aaaand this is starting to go almost exactly where I thought it would.

Well, if you put casual in front of things, it makes that thing don’t sound that bad. Criminal is a scary word, but “casual” criminal? That shit is fine. It sure doesn’t sound that bad, right? Yeah... it doesn’t work that way.

Look, from my experience encountering similar stuff, it only sounds casual because the one saying it is your friend and the subject of said “casual” racism don’t affect or interest you. Heck, I’m pretty sure your “casual” racist and even you who goes “Don’t be that sensitive, guyz. It’s just a joke.” will go livid if the subject of said “casual” racism push the button or said by the “wrong” person.

And you aren’t the judge of which racism is “casual” or not, so for the sake of clarity and proper judgment, I think you should just said what is this “casual” racist that your friend said. If you want my opinion, you have to give me the full picture here instead of going “outrage” culture.

For all the diss that so-called “outrage” culture get, let’s be honest, some things do deserve to receive outrage.

My 2c is that, so called "outrage culture" is Laser-Guided Karma meets Sins of the Father. How many times had a person of minority status have to watch what they say or do to be seen as belonging to so called "polite" society? How many times did people decided to shun aspects of themselves and their heritage because of peer pressure from WASPs? how many times were people of minority descent browbeaten into withholding criticism of racist people and actions? How many potential forces of chnage quashed because the privileged fostered a culture of fear among those that they took their dignity form?

I also say it a good thing because if the father is dead, then someone has to repent for his sins. And also because it would be a good thing to prevent such sins form being committed again.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on May 19th 2020 at 8:00:27 AM

"Why is America such an "Outrage" culture? A friend said something that borders on 'casual racism' and he got in trouble in college. Any where else in the world, nobody would have cared."

and "What I was getting at is it seems to me that Anglo-American civilization have certain features that lead it to extreme forms of behaviors. It's an observation, not a value judgment."

Actually, what you are expressing is a stereotype, in this case of Anglo-American culture. Your justification for this perception consists of two personal anecdotes which do not really seem logically connected. What makes you think that Anglo-Americans are any more given to "extreme behaviors" than anyone else? What does outrage at "casual racism" (whatever that is) have to do with "party culture?" Do you mean the entire society or just college campuses (clearly, you have never been to an American rural community)?

I will offer this observation: the US, at least, is more heterogeneous than most other nations. No one ethnic group dominates the national identity, the way, say, Germany or Spain is. Hence, we could very easily have more experience interacting with a diverse range of people, and have developed norms to help all of us get along. Explicit racism, however casual, is discouraged because we all know that it can easily lead to public conflict, and we can't afford that. Public tolerance is normative in the US because it helps us live and work together. Of course, implicit private racism is just as common here as it is anywhere.

As for party culture, get off my damn lawn, you drunk hooligans.

Edited by DeMarquis on May 19th 2020 at 11:12:40 AM

You guys are taking this way too personal. That's why this country is so divided. It's similar to how when one goes any conservative board as soon as you say anything that might hint to liberalism they take it as a personal slight against them. It's two sides of the same coin, in an ironic way.

I'm trying to say that the grievances of others are unjustified. Rather, I'm saying that society to function there has to be some sort of compromise. Sometimes if someone says something which might be offensive or a microaggression is better to ignore it try to find common ground.

This all started because you complained about a friend of yours being called out for bigotry. You're the one who is taking this too personally.

You still haven't told us what exactly your friend actually said.

Edited by M84 on May 20th 2020 at 12:25:17 AM

A common ground, eh? Like A want B to get lynched because his skin color is wrong, but B refuse to get lynched and call A racist, offending A. Obviously, the common ground here is to get A half-lynch B and B to call A just half-racist. Now everyone is happy. Yay!

Seriously, not only you don't see what is wrong with what are you saying, you go all the way to "it's not my fault at all, it's actually you guys' fault" like it's some sort of gotcha moment. I guess considering you think Americans don't like "complex" stories because they do not like the oh-so complex Kingdom Hearts in your head, I guess your current response is a fitting one. Compromise with racism. What is next? Compromise with Flat-earther? Anti-vaxxer? Neo-Nazi? Some people have standard.

I'm not an American btw. I just think what you said is completely stupid.

Edited by SteamKnight on May 19th 2020 at 11:59:32 PM

removed.

Edited by nova92 on May 27th 2020 at 6:32:57 AM

It'd help if you actually clarified what your friend did/said.

I suspect that whatever it was is particularly unpleasant. I’d love to be proved wrong.

I’m kind of boggling over the fact that getting in trouble for racists comments is considered a form of extremism. And described in such generic terms that we don’t know what that trouble was. Like, did other students respond or was there some kind of action from the school? And yeah, what exactly was said? Because you gave us practically nothing to help us understand what this specific situation was like. We would, in fact, like a lot more detail to this anecdote.

Also, the idea that any society should compromise with racism is bullshit. That’s how you get Jim Crow laws. Which are not at all a compromise.