Netflix Daredevil

I was just thinking about the series a few days back, and maybe it slipped my mind, but was it ever explained in detail how Wilson Fisk got so powerful?

I mean, he was the son of a pretty average family. Also, what exactly is his job, for the public I mean, what does he broker with?

Edited by Forenperser on Oct 21st 2020 at 12:00:02 PM

I don't think it's ever really explained in any detail, but the implication seemed to be he worked his way up with various criminal organizations, probably in Asia among other places, probably coming into contact with the Hand.

Don Rigoletto was the mob boss Fisk's father borrowed money from for his campaign. We don't know what happened to the debts that he owed Rigoletto after his son killed him, but presumably, I believe after a few years in hiding (as Fisk mentions living out in the country with relatives on his first date with Vanessa), a deal was struck where Fisk went to work for Rigoletto and worked off the debt. He did various jobs like be Rigoletto's driver and his debt collector. Eventually, in the late 1990s when the FBI locked up a bunch of the mob bosses including Rigoletto, Fisk assumed full command of the organization. While Rigoletto was doing time, Fisk befriended James Wesley, and he also started doing business with Madame Gao and with the Hand.

In the season 2 premiere, the Kitchen Irish boss, Nesbitt, mentions that they'd lost their edge "just enough to let a piece of shit like Wilson Fisk take what is rightfully ours". The way he says that, combined with him then mentioning that a few of the Kitchen Irish got recruited by Fisk, suggests that perhaps to earn favor from the Russians, the Yakuza and/or the Triads, Fisk did a very aggressive campaign to drive the Kitchen Irish out of Hell's Kitchen.

Around early 2012 or so, Rigoletto got out of prison. Not too long afterwards, shortly before the events of season 1, Fisk had Rigoletto cut to pieces and tossed in the Hudson. Season 1 kicks off so soon after Rigoletto's death that many don't know he's dead, as evidenced by this exchange when Wesley is strongarming the guard:

James Wesley: $28,957.

Clyde Farnum: Tell Rigoletto he'll get his money.

James Wesley: Mr. Rigoletto has "retired". His books have been acquired by my employer.

As for Ray Nadeem, I think Fisk started manipulating his finances around season 1, episode 7. We don't know how many days passed between the bombings and when he sent Hoffman to kill Detective Blake, but knowing Fisk's planning for contingencies, I think he and Wesley considered the possibility that the bombings were going to bring a lot of attention that would eventually get Fisk arrested. So they made up a plan through which Fisk would go down, do a few years in prison, then manipulate Nadeem into letting him out. While Fisk was doing his time, Wesley would hide out overseas with Vanessa while others like Owlsley and Felix Manning arranged things like purchasing the hotel, renovating the penthouse, and sending goons to attack the developer who tried to buy the hotel back from Fisk. Then once Fisk got out, the original plan was for things to essentially go back to what they were like in season 1, with Wesley functioning as Fisk's mouthpiece and insulating Fisk from all of his illegal stuff, taking orders from Fisk in the secret war room. But, Karen killed Wesley, so as a result, Felix had to be promoted to replace Wesley (and, to a degree, Owlsley).

I felt like it was a big misstep to leave Matt revealing his identity to Karen for the very end of season 2, especially knowing that they were doing The Defenders between season 2 and season 3. Not only did they have to fit the biggest part of their relationship into short flashbacks, but it lost most significance when they both pop up in The Defenders like nothing happens, before Matt "dies." And then in season 3, they spend a large part of the season apart.^note When it came to their pushback against Matt for his vigilantism, the script never really did Karen or Foggy any favors either. Karen gets some great scenes throughout the series with Frank, Matt, Ben Urich, and even Fisk, but mostly both of them were just repeating different variations of the the same thing: "Killing is bad, Matt! Let's take em down the legal way, the GOOD way. You don't have to do it alone... you're selfish and going to get yourself killed!"

When it came to Matt's and Karen's confessions of their secrets to one another, they drew the short straw. Foggy got an entire episode through which to process learning the truth about his best friend's secret identity. When Matt revealed his identity to Karen, she only got a fade to black at the end of season 2, then a three minute long flashback in the first episode of season 3 that didn't explore every aspect of the reveal. Now I suspect the writers felt that since they dedicated an entire episode of season 1 to Foggy's reaction, it would've been repetitive to have another reveal scene that would basically be a rehash of "Nelson v. Murdock" just with Karen instead of Foggy, and much of which would just be spent repeating information the audience knows.

I feel the same way when it comes to Karen's confession to Matt about killing James Wesley compared to her confession to Foggy. When she confesses it to Foggy, she gets to reveal onscreen to him why and how she did it. But when she reveals it to Matt, his only question is "Why didn't you tell us?" when the scene would've been more powerful if Matt's first question was "Why and how did you kill him?" and she had to explain why she did it, maybe even have her talk about the nightmares she had of Fisk in her bedroom. I think I once mentioned that the writers framing Karen's confession to Matt about Wesley around why she didn’t tell Matt or Foggy, rather than the circumstances under which she killed Wesley, made it seem like the writers were trying to skirt around the fact that it was an act of self-defense, and also not wanting have the scene be a word-for-word rehash of Karen’s confession to Foggy about the subject. (On a related note, I'd say that the placing of Karen's confession in the story also is problematic because it means Matt doesn't get an opportunity to grieve for Father Lantom. Matt never gets to grieve his mentors, having similarly been cut off from grieving Stick during The Defenders)

In both cases, I think the confessions should've been moved to earlier points in the timeline. In the case of Matt's confession to Karen about being Daredevil, I really think that should've happened in 2x08 when she came by his apartment and found Elektra in his bed. I feel it was a bit out of character for Karen to leave without grilling Matt for answers about the strange people in his apartment, and that her reason for doing so was to keep her from finding out the truth about Matt's identity five episodes early. Alternately, the identity reveal could've happened on their first date in 2x05, when Matt was making out with Karen on her front stoop. (Though, honestly season 2 would've been much better as a whole if Matt's personal life in general wasn't destroyed. The season would've been much better as a whole if Matt spent the season being open and honest with Foggy and Karen about what he was doing (including telling Karen that he’s Daredevil waaaay earlier in the season, ideally as soon as he decides he wants to ask her out), and keeping Elektra at arm’s length. Some of the details would be different, of course, but the main storylines would play out in much the same way.)

And with Karen's confession to Matt about killing Wesley, I'd have switched the order of the confessions around so that Matt was the first person she ever confessed to about Wesley's death, then Fisk second, and Foggy last. And I'd rewrite her confession to Foggy so that her confession to Matt can discuss the more important questions of Wesley’s death. More importantly, I'd also move Karen's confession to Matt about Wesley to much much earlier in season 3. I think it should've happened in episode 3 or 4, but that would've entailed having to rewrite a lot of Matt's character arc and plot beats for the season in order to have him teaming up with Karen to take down Fisk.

As a bonus, if season 3 were rewritten to have Matt team up with Karen at the beginning of the season to go after Fisk, that would've helped their relationship as it would've given more room for us to see how their dynamic has changed as a result of Karen learning his secret, how she's processing the reveal, how this affects her guilt over keeping her own secrets from him, etc. Season 2 allowed us to see how Matt and Foggy's friendship was changed as a result of Foggy learning Matt's secret; season 3 should've done the same for Matt and Karen. I'm assuming, though, most of this is stuff that would've been done in season 4 if the show had been renewed.

The memories:

I know some people say it's Narm, but that's still one of my favorite moments.

Season 1 is still my favorite, and the peak of the whole MCU Netflix-verse in my opinion.

I'm not totally happy with that first-season final episode and I really do still like the first four episodes of season 2, but overall yeah, it holds up the best. I still miss Ben.

That being said I did like the first season of Jessica Jones and both seasons of Luke Cage better than the rest of Daredevil.

I also think the end of season 1 is a bit rushed but yeah I still love it. I haven't exactly rewatched DD back to back but so far I actually find season 3 the strongest, in part because of its stronger finish.

Goddamn.

Granted part of it was also my state of mind while I watched it. Daredevil always spoke to me in a way no other show really did and season 3 came at a very interesting point of my life and the world.

The scene where Matt is at the end of his rope, wrapping his fists, and talking to his inner demons is another one that gives me chills to this day.

Yeah, Season 3 was even better than Season 1 imO.

I do rank Season 3 below Season 1 mainly because I felt it tried a little too hard to capture Season 1's lightning in a bottle at the expense of standing on its own legs, and because the final fight sequence between Daredevil, Kingpin, and Bullseye fell a little flat and anticlimactic for me compared to Daredevil and Kingpin's alley fight in Season 1. It's pretty close, though.

That being said, the first four episodes of Season 2 are somehow better than everything in Seasons 1 and 3. If the whole season had maintained that quality it'd easily be the best, rather than the unfortunate laughingstock it became.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Apr 6th 2020 at 3:18:22 PM

Season 1 was quite solid. Though it had some stumbles, it was for the most part exciting and well-executed. And ”Nelson v. Murdock” is among my favorite episodes.

For one, a lot of Matt's character development in season 1 was undone once Elektra came along. In season 1, he told Stick to fuck off and get the hell out of his city, and refused to push away his friends. He broke down in front of Karen, and even if he wasn’t willing to tell her the truth yet, he cried in her arms and admitted that he can’t do it alone. He didn’t choose to tell Foggy the truth, but once it happened he kept on being honest with him. There are some really powerful scenes in those episodes, that are all about Matt’s growth as a character. And then season 2 takes it all away, and makes him have to relearn the same lessons all over again.

Which is a damn shame because the plot of season 2 doesn’t even need Matt’s personal life to be destroyed, simply because a lot of what happens is driven by the choices of characters who have no connection to Matt's personal drama, like Frank, Fisk, the Blacksmith, Reyes, and Nobu. A lot of the season 2 plot is about Matt reacting to things initiated by other people, things that would still have happened if Matt spent the season being honest with Foggy and Karen about what he was doing, and keeping Elektra at arm’s length. Some of the details would be different, of course, but the main storyline could play out in much the same way.

Season 2 should have built on the events of season 1, not erased them. Bring in new challenges for Matt, yes, of course. The Punisher is a perfect foil to make Matt really think about his own moral code. As is Elektra, and she’s also a significant piece of Matt’s past, with a lot of plot potential. But the writers really should have been able to come up with a compelling story to tell without retroactively undoing the accomplishments of season 1, both personal and professional. If they wanted to go dark, Matt’s failures as Daredevil would be enough. The season could still end with Frank escaped, Fisk planning his revenge, the Hand undefeated, Elektra dead and Matt feeling guilty and futile. He could still end up questioning whether he should keep on being Daredevil, without having to lose Karen and Foggy on top of it.

Now that's my biggest problem with season 2 on a character level. On a story level, there's too much going on with them trying to tell the Punisher origin story and introduce the Elektra mythology at the same time. It ended up feeling as if they had no room to breathe. There's a problem with this from a writing standpoint, and it's that if the character-driven drama that hooks us and keeps us invested is very specifically Matt’s story (and those of Karen and Foggy alongside him), then having the two forces pulling his life apart be completely unrelated to one another means having to constantly catch characters up on what the audience knows.

In this regard, Season 1 was better than Season 2, as in Season 1, Matt was fighting the same battle against Fisk on two fronts, but didn’t realize it until he met Ben Urich in episode 8 and put the pieces together. Simultaneously, Fisk meeting Vanessa, and how that changed him while jeopardizing his alliances with the Russians and the Hand, all of that was so tightly plotted and balanced.

And for me, having information and waiting for the heroes to catch up is death. Because I get so frustrated, waiting for the good guys to figure out what I already know. That’s why The Avengers (2012) has massive structural issues and doesn’t really work once the too-pithy stylized dialogue stops distracting you from how empty it is, and why the back half of The Defenders suffers huge pacing issues. Because getting people on the phone tree, instead of revealing plot points to the characters and the audience simultaneously, is a bad way to break a story.

The best stories, the ones I enjoy the most, are ones where every plot beat is also an important character beat. Where how the characters react to what’s going on, what actions they take, comes from who the characters are at their best and worst. Who these people are at their core. Those choices have to feel consistent, for the story to feel organic. If Matt makes a choice, then it has to have a sense of inevitability. That based on everything we know about this character, that is the only course of action open to them because it rings true.

Juggling the Punisher, corruption in the district attorney’s office, Matt over-extending himself, the mystery of the Blacksmith, the secret war between the Chaste and the Hand, what was under Elena Cardenas’ tenement that the Hand needed Fisk to secure for them, the mystery of the Black Sky, the flashbacks to Matt and Elektra’s college romance, her entire backstory with Stick, the undead ninjas, Fisk taking control of Rikers from Dutton, Fisk getting the pieces to connect Matt to Daredevil, Matt and Foggy’s friendship falling apart, Matt’s burgeoning romance with Karen falling apart, Foggy outgrowing needing Matt as a security blanket and coming into his own, Karen’s secrets and working relationship with Ellison, Claire dealing with Matt’s bullshit and losing everything...that's a lot to juggle. It makes the season feel disjointed and fragmented because it was too many fragments that never tied together or touched on one another.

• breathes deeply*

Season 3 had some great setpieces. Like the prison fight, the Bulletin attack, the church fight, and the ending Mêlée à Trois. Dex was a compelling Tragic Villain, and Nadeem was a compelling Tragic Hero. But there were also some areas where they could've improved things.

For one, I completely get what they were going for with Matt in Season 3, with stripping his civilian life from him while also keeping him out of the Daredevil costume for… well, for the entire season in what was essentially a semi-adaptation of “Born Again”. But “Born Again” is a story in a league of its own (though not without its flaws; I actually prefer an AU fanfic of that story where Foggy is by Matt's side for the entirety of the story), and what elements of season 3 weren't adapted from that feel primarily like a rehashing of Season 1 (when you stop and think about it, Nadeem's role in bringing down Fisk at the end makes him come off as simply a more fleshed out version of Carl Hoffman from season 1).

I would have traded quite a bit of Matt's angst and religious rambling for some good scenes of Matt being a lawyer and rekindling his romance with Karen. In fact, it would've been compelling to have found a way to deal with a Matt-gets-outed-as-Daredevil plot. Of course, getting Matt back to defending clients in court would have required a completely different story, but on the other hand, I think Matt could have resumed his life about four episodes earlier than he did. Though that's probably stuff that was planned for season 4.

Foggy's district attorney campaign started off on solid footing, but I wanted a lot more out of that arc. It was neat that it happened at all, since it’s an important part of Foggy’s character development in the comics, but it fell kind of flat in the show. In fact, he should've had a much bigger target on his back, especially since Fisk made a point of specifically mentioning him in Season 2. (For example, I think Fisk could've killed Foggy's campaign by informing the Bar Association about Matt stealing Foggy's Bar ID to visit the prison)

Karen's confession to Matt about killing Wesley is a big character moment, but I think I said this before, the fact that the writing was framed around why Karen didn’t tell Matt or Foggy about it, rather than the circumstances that led her to kill Wesley, makes it seem like the writers trying to sidestep the fact that she did it in self-defense, perhaps as a byproduct of the writers not wanting this to be a rehash of Karen’s confession to Foggy word-for-word. But I think making Matt be the first person she confessed to about Wesley, and/or moving up the confession to Matt (honestly, I think it should've happened in episode 6 when Matt approached her to ask for help finding Jasper Evans, since he would've noticed she wasn't okay and she was scared of something other than him), and/or writing her confession Foggy differently, would have allowed for the conversation here to tackle the more important questions of Wesley’s death. I still don't know why Karen perceives what happened with her brother and what happened with Wesley as being one and the same when the circumstances of their deaths were so different.

Melvin Potter was another plot thread that deserved better. I mean, Matt did try to help Melvin, and clearly felt bad about getting him arrested, but he definitely could have done more to help him. I would've loved to see Matt (in lawyer mode) convince Melvin to build him a new Daredevil suit so he could face off against Dex on even terms. Melvin’s limited presence in this season is disappointing, both in the fact that we never got an actual Gladiator origin story (was that being saved for season 4?) and because he never developed the same degree of complicated friendship that he and Matt have in the comics. At least we finally got to see Betsy Beatty, which was nice, but I did not like how Melvin was used and then discarded this season.

In fact, I just realized now, that if I could rewrite seasons 1 and 2, I would absolutely want to add a few things here and there foreshadowing the events of season 3.

For instance, I think in "Stick", I would add a scene where Fisk and Wesley meet with Tammy Hattley at her house. They explain to Hattley that with the increased heat from the shooting of Detective Blake and the possibility that he and/or Hoffman will implicate Fisk in the bombings and the murders of the cops, that they need an insurance policy set up for in case Fisk goes to jail. Fisk decides that he'll manipulate an FBI agent into letting him out after a few years, and tasks Hattley with finding an agent who is in a rather vulnerable position. Once Nadeem is identified, Wesley works with Felix Manning to have Nadeem surveilled.

In fact, in general, Felix Manning should've made appearances in season 1, maybe having a few scenes with Owlsley (like when Matt tries to interrogate Owlsley in the Silver & Brent parking garage, only for Stick to interrupt).

Also in season 1, I would've had Foggy's family make a few appearances. Perhaps have a scene where Foggy's parents and Theo come by the office during the early episodes. Or have Matt, Karen and Foggy commiserate at Nelson's Meats after Elena is killed.

In scenes where Karen's past is hinted at, I would make Ben Urich be more overt about what he's found on Karen. Like when he tells Karen at the diner, "Stories like this are built on sources, Miss Page. Credible sources. I did some digging into your, uh... past activities." I would have him add, "...And if I could find out that you used to be a drug dealer when you lived in Fagan Corners eleven years ago, the people you're up against could easily could too with enough time and money."

In season 2, during "Seven Minutes in Heaven," I would establish through rewritten dialogue between Fisk and Donovan that Fisk's reasons for wanting to usurp control of the prison from Dutton was because he was intending to use the money from the contraband ring to fund his purchase of the Presidential Hotel. Since when you think about it, Fisk would've been bleeding through quite a lot of his remaining cash driving Nadeem into debt while also paying off Stewart Finney and the Valdez brothers on the inside and keeping Vanessa's protection fund replenished.

So, if we had gotten season 4, Erik Oleson was planning to bring over Alice Eve to reprise her role as Typhoid Mary from Iron Fist season 2, while also having Leland Owlsley's son appear as The Owl (and main villain), and Melvin Potter as the Gladiator was in the cards. Dex would've then been reintroduced in season 5 after his back healed.

This video also has some other interesting details. For instance, Peter Gerety was originally going to play Leland Owlsley, but due to a knee injury, they recast the role with Bob Gunton and gave Gerety the single scene as Silke. Or that Wilson Bethel broke his wrist during the scene where he punches a wall as Fisk's manipulations reach a breaking point.

Someone created a cool fan-made poster.

The Owl, Typhoid Mary, Gladiator... Dang. I miss this show.

Two years already since it ended. What a shame.

There's some more things I've thought of that would've been better if done differently in later seasons.

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 21st 2021 at 9:37:02 AM

Netflix's Daredevil spiked in viewers after recent MCU Easter eggs

Edited by windleopard on Jan 20th 2022 at 8:04:44 AM

See, that's why I thought Disney wouldn't revive any of the Netflix shows. "Like the Kingpin in Hawkeye? Go subscribe to Netflix for more!"

Arguably, Netflix isn't in competition with the shows. If you're watching Kingpin appear in Hawkeye, then Disney doesn't need to try to convince you to subscribe to D+.

Subscribing to both doesn't cause Disney to lose a sale, so there's no risk there.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 20th 2022 at 9:32:07 AM

I actually just cancelled my D+ subscription but kept my Netflix one, so there's always that risk of 'flight' to a digital library you like better once you decide the other isn't worth it. But it's still a fair point.

Yea, that's why I think any Netflix characters showing up will just be guest appearances, and if/when one of them gets a new movie or series it'll avoid making any real references to the Netflix seasons.

Edited by Hawkeye86 on Jan 20th 2022 at 12:41:59 PM

One thing that I liked is the fact that Wilson Fisk's power is mostly his ability to serve as a mediator between comic book supervillains and organized crime. They all sort of indulge him.

Plus, he's grown so powerful because New York has gone majorly downhill since the Invasion.

He serves as kind of a facilitator, making sure that these guys who have money get in touch with this guy here who can launder it, while these guys provide the muscle.

Initially he himself doesn't seem to be particularly powerful in his own right but he manages to leverage his way into being first amongst equals in the underworld.

Which is what was the greatest thing about him in the Show.

Sure, he was a physical threat as well, but it was his Chessmaster-Ability that made him so terrifying.

I still remember that scene in Season 3, where Nadeem suddenly realized just how deep his control of the FBI was, when he was framed for murder.

Fisk felt absolutely invincible at this point.