The Islamophobia Thread

@Philosopher Stones: Well, not always, I'm pretty sure it wasn't put in place in Turkey because of islamophobia. Although I agree with you that it does stem from religious discrimination in Quebec (just have to look at the posts above), if it's done in an impartial manner then it's not discriminative.

"Ok, so this law is clearly rooted in our desire to discriminate against a certain religion. But we will totally implement it in a way that makes it not discriminatory!"

Yes it was. Kemal Ataturk banned Islamic dress in the name of modernizing the country and destroying the influence of religion in every day life, while ramming Turkish nationalism down the populace's throat.

Yeah Turkey for a long time took a very French approach to religion, but more towards the way that religion was treated just after the revolution.

A big part of its current issues are because instead of addressing issues and deradicalising people the Turkish government just used a boot on religious groups and pushed them further and further down a dark path.

Yeah, repressive secularism just tends to make the opposition take on a radical sectarian character.

Secular pluralism or bust.

Three things:

• Tariq Ramadan fought hard to improve Islam's image and functionality as a religion that is viable in Europe. His aegis as such was during The War On Terror.
• Tariq Ramadan was, for that reason, the designated target of the media and the professional islamophobes, and was constantly accused of a lot of fake things to stoke fear of Muslims.
• Obviously Islam as a whole belongs in the Sexism thread. And so does Catholicism. It's built-in. We try hard to pretend otherwise, but it's much, much easier to leave these religion and do something else than to fix that.

And why bother? In fact, my birth religion is an inherited load that does nothing but slow people down and distract them from reality and from pursuing goals worth their time. Why bother defending those who can't let go of it, let alone those who actively promote it with revivalism? Even against bigots, liars, fascists, racists, and other deplorables?

It fits better in the Sexism thread since it's about one man's sexism. No more, no less.

Suuuure, a lone wolf, an isolated incident, it's just this one guy, not like we have a systemic problem or anything. Why, it's a matter of free will, moral choice, and personal responsibility. It's not like the behavior of an extremely important and influential figure has an effect on people outside themself.

edited 10th Nov '17 11:13:09 PM by TheHandle

It is a matter of free will and personal responsibility. If it weren't, a lot more Muslims and Catholics (your examples) would be sexual predators. Anyone who thinks this asshole's behavior somehow validates Islamophobia was probably inclined towards it in the first place.

For the record, I'm an atheist.

Laconic version: It's in the islamophobia thread because the guy did a lot to fight "islamophobia", and because he was recently revealed to be an hypocrite, then all the work he did is null and void.

Did I sum this up correctly?

Edit: And since I'm doing summaries, the video of the ex-Muslim basically said that so-called "moderate" Muslims are wearing a Mask of Sanity that falls every time "blasphemy" comes to public light (in that even "moderates" want blasphemy laws; and even in a so-called "moderate" Islamic country, someone who drew too much was not only arrested, but shot on the courthouse steps).

Prediction: someone asks why blasphemy laws are inherently a bad thing, just proving the point.

edited 11th Nov '17 1:04:11 AM by Medinoc

I winced the moment that guy mentioned Richard Dawkins as the one who started him on his road to atheism.

Exactly. Thank you very much.

edited 11th Nov '17 8:50:14 AM by TheHandle

I don't know much about Dawkins, but given the reactions, this guy has become a real-life Straw Atheist?

That's been my impression, but my main first-hand knowledge of the man was his being mocked in South Park for the ironically religious fervor with which he pursued his atheism. It also features Cartman burying himself in snow to cryogenically freeze himself until the Wii came out, so thinking I can't take that too seriously as a source of knowledge.

edited 11th Nov '17 5:05:58 AM by sgamer82

If only he was a Straw Atheist. He devolved into fervent Islamophobia alongside Bill Maher, believes in fucking eugenics, doesn't respect feminism...

There's a reason atheists like PZ Myers can't stand Dawkins anymore.

edited 11th Nov '17 5:33:48 AM by M84

Your choice to leave is your personal choice, and I won't argue with that.

But you saying this sort of thing does a massive disservice to Christian and Islamic (not to mention Jewish, while we're at it) feminists ^note and also religious women who don't call themselves feminists, but do work to improve women's lives, in both the religious sphere and the secular sphere who try really hard to improve/fix a few things for both genders (and are often shot by both sides).

edited 11th Nov '17 6:44:04 AM by Quag15

I didn't say Christians, I said Catholics. It's hardwired deep into the Church's dogmas and DNA's. Benedict is an anomaly. Even for Christians, to not be sexist, they need to grow far beyond their base mythology and traditions, in which case, why even bother with those things, with what makes Christianity Christianity and Islam Islam, at and not be Unitarian or Deist or Agnostic?

Why, just for starters, stick with a foundational story that posits humanity fell from a state of grace by the fault of a Pandoric woman and the "uxurious" man who was dumb enough to do as she said and defy the orders of the Patriarch and attempt some social mobility? Ignore it? Don't think about it? How much can you ignore and not think about and hand-wave before you run out of book? How many oppressive and unjust and impractical rules can you drop before you run out of rules?

I'm very happy for feminists in either system to try and help make things better for women there. Whatever works. Whatever makes the pain stop. However, they're polishing turds, and there's only so much they can change until it becomes unrecognizable as such. They're very welcome to do that, though. Sometimes that's the best you can do, and I'm thankful to them. So long as they don't take advantage of their position to sleaze their way into people's crotches.

edited 11th Nov '17 6:56:28 AM by TheHandle

Nothing I could say will alleviate your pain at knowing that a role model you had fell, and your perception of religions is already confirmed, and won't be changed, even if I'd argue for a more neutral view (as in, it is not sliced bread nor is it a turd) of religion (and I won't, because of previous discussions we had back when I used to participate in that Religion thread).

May you find solace elsewhere.

No, it's not a turd, I just didn't have the right expression. It's more like trying to upgrade a stagecoach into being highway-compliant. By the time you've made it so, is it even a stagecoach anymore? Why not just buy a car? Likewise, you can keep patching and mending internal combustion cars over and over, making them cleaner and more efficient, but eventually as Society Marches On you should ask yourself if you shouldn't switch to an electric or hybrid car altogether?

Maybe you see it more like making vegan substitutes of meat dishes, and find it obnoxious when people ask you to either do away with meat as a gastronomic component altogether, or embrace your meat-loving.

Well, I appreciate your charity. Especially since I assume it takes real effort on your part, as there's nothing apologetic or repentant about my attitude. I assume the people you looked up to as religious mentors (and it looks like you had some good ones) have never turned out to have been being sleazy abusive exploitative monsters all along.

Religion, as Paul duly notes, isn't about satisfying the brain with logic and sensibility. It's about the heart, about the emotions and feelings and sentiments you convey. People don't convert to gospels, they convert to prophets, starting with their own parents. If your chain of religious mentors is good, no logic in the world will sway you. If it's made of liars, hypocrites, scammers, and sleazebags, well... I for one have never met a religiously authoritative Muslim that had any integrity. I thought I knew of one, who made me think Islam was a religion worth defending, if not upholding... until a couple of days ago.

Well, the world is still full of Muslims who were born into it and who are unfairly stigmatized and persecuted for things they haven't done. That's an injustice, and telling them to renounce their faith just so they can be rid of that strikes me as victim-blaming... not to mention pointless. The bigots will just look for another motive to latch on to. It's a bit like telling women in Islamic most all societies to dress to standards to avoid harassment, when they will get harassed no matter what they wear.

edited 11th Nov '17 8:35:08 AM by TheHandle

Yeah, you're descending into actual Islamaphobia there Handle. Even if you had identified a core problem within Islam, this wouldn't be the thread for it. You'd need to take it to one of the religion threads.

Also, sharing videos containing people who claim all Muslims are wearing "the mask of sanity"? Excuse me while I throw up.

Maybe I am. Now I have an idea of how Karl Marx must have felt when he wrote The Jewish Question, antisemitic piece of garbage that it is.

As for the second paragraph, are you talking to me? I don't remember doing that. Or watching any video like that. Who uses that language? Hitchens?

EDIT: Ah, I saw Medinoc's edit. Another case of "for lack of a better word". Well, what would you call it when people are willing to compromise and be reasonable on many. many points, but when it comes to criticizing or mocking their Very Important Thing, they want laws banning that?

You're absolutely right. It's just typical of the Muslims I've happened to look up to as authorities on Islam throughout my own life. The plural of anecdote is not data.

It's credible on the surface, but how many robberies have you seen or heard about involving burqas? Has anyone ever actually done that?

As for comfort and choice, I'll point you to Western fashion and why "the only short I found that fit me properly had "SLUT" written in sequins on it, was designed by a man, and had no pockets". You won't empower them by forbidding the burqa, you'll just shut them inside their home.

@Chart: it's blatantly unfair, stupid, and malicious.

edited 11th Nov '17 8:53:49 AM by TheHandle

The video in question was the one posted by Philosopher Stones, back on page 62.

Side-note: Handle, you're thinking of Francis, I think. Pope Benedict wasn't at all reformative (he wasn't much of anything really, the poor fellow)

Shame on me, I apologize for that lapse.

It's really interesting how different they are in practical ethics when, by all accounts, they are theological twins, though.

edited 11th Nov '17 9:12:20 AM by TheHandle

You know how it felt to write anti-Semitic garbage? I feel I'm missing something here.