DC Comics General

Doomsday is this Hero Killer that is feared across the universe, beats up The Justice League, takes everything Superman has to stop to the point he has to resort to lethal force and dies himself in the effort. Doomsday goes on to punch Darkseid's guts out after coming back to life on his own. Superman then achieves a decisive victory over Doomsday after discovering the monster's weakness, "the ultimate's" imperfections, and humiliates Doomsday. Darkseid doesn't even fear Doomsday anymore, but it was a road to get there.

Bane is this feared inmate before he survives this drug that killed everyone else who took it. Bane doesn't kill Batman but Bane beats Killer Crock twice, beats Madhatter, beats Robin, outsmarts Batman and cripples him after using Joker and Poison Ivy as pawns while Bane stands unscathed. Bane actually attains victory where Doomsday had to settle for a draw. Bane proceeds to establish his dominance over Gotham City before a new Batman with Powered Armor finally defeats him.

Moreover Doomsday and Bane were made for Superman and Batman and remain staples of their sub franchises. Neron was by contrast a background setting villain no where near as menacing. Sure he kills Mongul, but it's a weaker than previous Mongul. Neron then suffers a humiliating loss to The Flash. Then he kills Wonder Woman, not through his own merits, but because of Hippolyta's mistakes. He doesn't become a Wonder Woman staple. He goes on to screw with John Constantine and lose. As a Hero Killer/winning bad guy Neron falls flat. He's a better conceived character than Doomsday, but he doesn't succeed to the same degree and looks like a chump by comparison. It'd have been more impactful if Circe had been the one to successfully kill Wonder Woman, if Gaia hadn't kept Diana alive and Donna hadn't restored her body. It still wouldn't be the same situation as Doomsday or Bane, but there's an argument for the long running villain finally winning being better. There's no argument for Neron leaving the impact of Doomsday and Bane. It'd be better off if Diana just lived. All her death lead to was a power up a two thirds of her writers cheerfully ignored. Genocide sort of fills the role in that she beats the ass of Diana and several others, then leaves a slow healing wound on the series after finally going down, but she doesn't become a staple character either. I don't think Genocide should have become such, the ship for giving Wonder Woman her own Doomsday or Bane had already sailed. My question is how did DC fail to get on board with their own clearly winning formula while the train was still at the station?

Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Mar 17th 2024 at 1:26:25 PM

The first doomsday fight was Amazing. Like seeing less and less panels as time went on due to sheer impact.

I kinda hope we get to see some thing like it in my adventures.

Wait, you have adventures?

I want to have adventures...

The original Superman/Doomsday battle is still hands down one of the greatest, maybe THE greatest, fight scenes in a DC comic ever. The sense of gravity and brutality hasn't been matched by many other fights. It's also part of why I'm iffy on Doomsday being a regular part of Supes' rogues gallery and not the kind of character who - at best - shows up once every decade or so; he should be treated with huge weight.

Seriously that battle was fucking baller as hell. Especially the big final issue where every page was a full page piece.

I also like how Doomsday stated the beginning of the arc with literally one hand tied behind his back, still kicking everyone's ass and when he got it free he went next level. Felt like something out of a shonen.

What makes it funny is that Bendis was completely incompetant in actually showing off his pet characters.

Like he put Naomi on his Justice League and proceeded to have the first arc end with her getting so scared she faints and the last issue of the arc battle is the League recounting how they had to drag her unconscious body away from her dimension as they did all the work.

Yet they allow her to join the team.

Bendis' superheroes are often incompetent because he works best at milieus that are non superheroic, or street level superheroic at best.

The issue with OG Doomsday is he was (relatively, compared to the likes of Flash and Superman) slow and stupid. Granted he also was a Mighty Glacier tank who made up for his lack of speed by taking all shots without getting any damage, but at some point you just ask yourself why Superman and the Justice League don't just throw him into the sun or outer space at least. Or the Phantom Zone or something like that. Because he has no defenses against that, being (relatively) slow and (non relatively) dumb. Even Lobo, who is similarly indestructible but a whole lot less difficult to knock out, makes up by being able to fly with his motorcycle, and actually having a lot of cunning in fights even if otherwise he is a dumb thug.

Edited by TomWithoutJerry on Mar 17th 2024 at 1:52:50 AM

Bendis' plotting during his JL is just amateur. The arcs were either an endless single fight-scene with way too many double-page spreads, or they were more focused on setting up his own stuff meaning his Justice League just ended up being advertisement for Bendis' toybox instead of trying to tell a story.

First arc was Naomi set-up, next arc was more Checkmate/Leviathan stuff all whole setting up Lois Lane's cousin oliver brother Leo Lane/Daemon Rose as the next big character, the other arc was just to introduce a new super-team for the United Planets that included a male Starfire clone called Prince Zeep with her cartoon self's way of talking and powers (despite Starfire's powers not being natural for her species). And the final arc was propping up his big OC villain who is the progenitor of the Chaos/Order lords or whatever, that devolved into more Naomi wanking.

It's astonishing how much of a fucking disaster Bendis' tenure at DC is. About the only thing anyone agrees is good was the Batman Universe miniseries he wrote.

I'm pretty sure anyone who not only grabs ahold of Doomsday but tries to carry him into the sky and to space is forfeiting their life for "YOU ARE LITERALLY HUGGING ONTO A SPIKY RAGE MONSTER THAT KILLS ANYTHING THAT ENTERS ITS GENERAL RADIUS" reasons that I would think are fairly obvious. The Phantom Zone thing could actually work - notably it's how the League got rid of Doomsday in the DCAU by dumping him into a PZ portal since no jail on Earth could possibly hold him and Doomsday snarls that he'll find a way out eventually as they do. Of course, there they do so while he's under a bajillion restraints to hold him in place; getting a loose Doomsday into a portal to the Phantom Zone is probably easier said than done.

I absolutely agree with your take on Bendis. He's the kind of writer who functions at smaller scales, street level stuff where the heroes and villains are on the low-end of the power spectrum, medium at most, and if there's any LARGE scale stuff it's happening off in the background or side as worldbuilding rather than the focus (e.g., his last Daredevil comic, End Of Days, is set in a dystopian future with a lot of major world events and conflicts implied to be going on, but it's all just the setting backdrop to a noir detective story that never even connects to all that stuff). When he goes above that level and tries to write genuinely SUPER characters and situations, he stumbles badly because he seemingly just can't figure out how to make such things work and refuses to learn how. You get him trying to drag his street pets up with him or failing to use the characters and lore creatively, all sorts of bad shit.

That's an issue if you are a Close-Range Combatant but there are heroes who have long range options that can get around that issue. Maxima, for example, could have used her telekinesis to throw him away in his first battle but she didn't for some reason.

Made a trope page for Aquaman (1989), aka "the one with evil giant jellyfish and also Mera goes nuts."

EDIT: And also one for Aquaman (1986), the one with the blue camouflage suit, magic, and everyone being a jerk.

DOUBLE EDIT: TIL A follow-up miniseries was planned for 1987, but was cancelled due to creative differences and not meeting deadlines. Back Issue #46 revealed the plot would have followed Aquaman interacting more with his supporting cast, including reconnecting with Mera and having a second child. Aqualad would have had a new girlfriend named Tawna and Vulko had a wife named Makaira, who ruled in his stead after his injury from the first series. Villains would have been the Sunderland Corporation from Swamp Thing, who used Atlantis as their dumping ground, and an Atlantean religious extremist named Claudius who sought to resurrect Poseidon to punish both the interlopers and strayed Atlanteans.

Edited by lalalei2001 on Mar 19th 2024 at 4:03:39 AM

RE: Bendis:

Oh man, Bendis's tenure at DC sure was something, wasn't it?

I actually forgot about the UP's JL rip-off. Is anyone using them? Because Jeremy Adams' GL run could easily reimagine them as the UP's hit squad. You know, because they're corrupt AF?

Is anyone even using Naomi either? Can't believe one of her "contributions" to the JL was fainting.

…Geez, Bendis. What happened to you?

He was allowed to do whatever he wanted yet put on books he wasn't at all suited for at the same time, all while also being amongst Dan DiDio's inner circle of favoritism right as DiDio's hold over DC was falling apart and he was being ousted for being a huge asshole.

He'd be a good fit for Batman but I heard he doesn't like Batman? The only two Batman stories of his I've read (that Citizen Kane Elseworlds short and that other short where Penguin and Bruce are very old and Penguin tells how he figured Batman's id long ago), actually I liked those two a lot, so it seems kind of a wasted oportunity, if true.

For the UP hero group they have not appeared since.

The current GL books are instead focusing on UP possessing authoritarian Green Lanterns under their control, with the Adam’s run revealing their Lanterns can actually switch become the emotional spectrum on command so they can be reds, yellows, etc. They seem to be destroying each of the corps power battery’s.

Yeah Bendis was not giving books that actually fit his strength. Instead of a street-level character, he was instead given Superman, Young Justice, Legion of Superheroes, and spent a lot of time hyping his Leviathan storyline which is the secret spy agency Checkmate vs Leviathan.

Closest to down to Earth is probably his Naomi book but that got ruined because Bendis spent more time promoting her instead of continuing her main series.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 19th 2024 at 10:02:05 AM

Funny thing is, I feel like Bendis's style could suit Legion.

Bendis's quippy dialogue and focus on inter-hero conflict while occasionally failing to take major villains seriously is theoretically a good match for the Legion of Super-Heroes.

But, well, I always felt like he had issues with in-universe vs. out-of-universe logic. Prizing characters who were well-known to the readers and appearing to have little patience for characters who are logically intimidating or important in-universe but have little cultural cache. And if you are taking that attitude to the Legion, it's likely going to result in disaster given how good Legion stories tend to require a certain earnestness toward minor characters.

justice league vs godzilla vs kong. to stop the titans and lex's mechagodzilla the heroes got some of their own mechs, a batmech, and the lanterns combine to make a giant energy construct robot. grodd then comes in with a mindcontrolled kong and supergirl, and they tear off one of the gl robot limbs, and grodd kills Guy. beast boy goes kong size but is taken out by supergirl jason and dick riding the bat plane they transformed into a smaller mech destroy grodd's helmet and supergirl and kong stop attacking, but then the league of assisins and a bunch of skullcrawlers come in while superman goes to godzilla who is chained up in the mariana trench with nth metal, that they have unfinished business

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Mar 19th 2024 at 8:14:04 AM

How many issues is the series?

7 I think, this is issue 6.

Man the funniest thing I've seen about the latest Titans issue is someone commenting that Terra was overall far less of a liability to the Titans compared.

Like at least Terra only tried to kill them once, meanwhile Raven's demon-side is consistently a problem. She tries to kill the Titans as many times as Batman's contingency's go wrong.

Also man what is it with Beast Boy and destructive psycho chicks?

It is pretty hilarious that Raven having Trigon for a baby-daddy has caused more hell for the team than any of the actual traitors.

Makes you wonder if "liking crazy girls" is seen as a potential danger by the JL.

”We’ve checked over some Silver Age Lois Lane comics, Superman, and we have concerns….”

Really, if Waller wanted to turn the world against superheroes or even just the Titans, all she had to do was bring up how often they get possessed and brainwashed and cause a lot of damage before being stopped. Max Lord pointed out that the fact he could control Superman was proof that superheroes were unreliable (thought that fell into Insane Troll Logic).

Edited by windleopard on Mar 21st 2024 at 4:58:30 PM

Of course Waller has lost all sense and rationality with the latest Titans issue having her make a deal with Trigon for Raven’s development.

The woman thinks superheroes are a threat yet is willing to work with an inter dimensional eldritch being……. And thinks she can actually beat him.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 21st 2024 at 9:01:58 AM

I mean, to be fair, Trigon's been beaten a bunch of times by this point.