Superman VS Batman

I came in here intending to comment on how stupid this matchup is, but I can see that most of the people who have posted in this thread have already commented on it. So, good job everyone.

edited 16th Apr '13 12:11:58 PM by Hyp3rB14d3

This match-up isn't only silly, it kind of exposes how silly the concept of Ultimate Showdowns is with certain characters in the first place.

And to be honest, one of the big things the DC Universe has going against it is that it's biggest characters were all originally conceived as wholly individual characters - not meant to be put together in the same universe, let alone forced to fight each other. And to an extend they're still written that way.

I mean, we love 'em anyway, but it's only in situations like this where I start to notice how the writers kind of have to write around certain things in order to keep all the characters capable of being together in ensemble works without breaking suspension of disbelief.

edited 16th Apr '13 11:20:03 PM by KnownUnknown

All characters are not created equal. Sometimes Character A is just flat-out stronger than Character B. The problem is, fans and writers alike have a bad tendency to judge a character's worth solely on "Who could beat who in a fight?" Marvel and DC both have this problem.

Batman doesn't need to be able to beat up Superman to be a valuable and interesting character in his own right, any more than Black Panther needs to be able to beat up the Silver Surfer.

Yeah, but after a while, every character's career is just a list of badass accomplishments.

• Remember when Spider-man moved a big chunk of machinery on pure Heroic Spirit (pictured there)
• Remember when Batman beat the crap out of Superman? (pictured on Badass Normal)
• Remember when Superboy-Prime broke spacetime? (pictured on Cosmic Retcon)

Every long-running character eventually has that, and fandoms are especially vocal about what character's accomplishments make them more "worthy" than others.

There was The Dark Knight Returns. That one had a fight between Superman and Batman with reasonable limits put in. But yeah, if Superman was fighting at 100%, Batman would be very dead.

Yeah, Returns is a bit different since Bats was fighting even dirtier than usual. It was still awesome, though.

When it comes down to it, Superman wins his fights because he's smarter/stronger/faster than whoever or whatever he's fighting. On the other hand, Batman wins because he cheats. He doesn't play according to his opponent's rules.

edited 18th Apr '13 12:37:34 PM by resetlocksley

I think you summed it up nicely; Superman would probably win in a "fair fight", but Batman doesn't fight fair, since fighting fair in of itself would be unfair since he's not really playing to his strengths.

Which means it effectively comes down to context. Who throws the first punch?

The defender always has the advantage of the fight transpiring on their territory, but the attacker has the advantage that they define the battle. Where it takes place, how it happens, why it happens. The rules of engagement are determined by how the attacker chooses to engage. Combat favors the aggressor.

edited 19th Apr '13 6:35:52 AM by TobiasDrake

Another interesting thing about their fight in TDKR is that it was never really about Superman at all, since he was basically acting as Bruce's scapegoat/alibi for faking his death.

It depends on whether Batman is on fire and dressed as a woman.

Because, why would Superman expect that?

Bump-a-dump.

How I'd write the definitive Superman VS Batman fight:

"Clark, I always knew it would come to this. I've spent months preparing."

"I'll bet you have, Bruce. But before we start, just answer me one question: why did you become Batman?"

"Why did I...?"

"Something about your parents?"

"My...parents? Why can't...why can't I remember?"

"Heat vision. Focused through your pupils like a scalpel. Funny how being able to forget one evening can change everything. Faster and cheaper than a therapist. Later Bruce."

• Superman flys away*

edited 31st May '13 7:22:06 AM by CitizenH

Batman to self: Ha. Stupid Clark. Good thing I reinforced my pupils with deflectory contact lenses for just an occasion.

What if they just sparred instead? They wouldn't have a reason to fight, and either could win by sneak attacking the other, but there might be a reason to train together. Somehow. As long as Clark doesn't just grab Bruce and hold him a mile off the ground or something. What would be good rules for that?

Here's an idea to ponder: Batman can always beat Superman... at chess.

The problem with Batman as opposed to any of his coLeagues is that they are full-on Superpower Lottery winners and he's at best a Badass Normal. Or rather, the problem is that whenever there's a team up, writers usually have him fight on the frontlines alongside them, rather than strike from the shadows and use psychological manipulation against the enemy, as is his natural style, and where other coLeagues actually fall behind. (As a side note, having most enemies fall to a well thrown batarang also makes them seem less threatening, and the other capes' powers look like overkill.)

If Batman were to act against Superman and win in any believable way, there simply wouldn't be a fight. The Blue Boyscout would never know what hit him in the first place. Conversely, in any open confrontation, the Bat would be knocked out in moments flat. The set up is just too asymmetric for any standard Let's You and Him Fight situations.

edited 6th Jul '13 7:32:02 AM by indiana404

Even chess is questionable. When writers remember it, Superman has Super-Intelligence, with a mathematically precise brain that processes information greater than any supercomputer on Earth.

Even considering stealth, Batman's stealthiness is a Charles Atlas Superpower sometimes. He's snuck up on Superman before, despite Superman being able to passively perceive a pin falling on a waterbed in China....from Pluto.

edited 6th Jul '13 8:30:43 AM by KingZeal

Yeah, it's getting kinda ridiculous just how super the guy can get. That super learn-medicine-and-surgery-in-five-minutes bit in The New 52 almost turned me into a chiromancer.

But that's my point - there have to be some things he isn't that good at. I've seen it noted how he'd remove all tension from any fight in the eventual Justice League movies, since the main question'd be "how long before Superman decides to break a sweat". Either that or have him benched for no good reason.

I suggested grand strategy, since it'd be in character for him to prefer straightforward solutions, having the strength to pull them off; while Batman would be in his element when playing the long and sneaky game. Intelligence by itself can still be outmatched by experience, streetwise education, and good old kneecapping - all tools of the Bat's trade. I'm not saying victory is all that likely, even in such circumstances, but it's a lot more viable than bashing him with kryptonite knuckle-dusters.

What about monopoly? Yeah, agree about the chess thing. Depending on the version, sometimes chess was like tic tac toe to Superman(Silver Age version). Batman would work more as the planner and ace up the sleeve. Bad guy underestimates him and thus forgets to keep an eye on him. While the others are punching the bad guy around, batman does something clever to spoil the bad guy's evil plan. There has to be a good way to have both batman and the JL look good. Bad writers seem to make Batman look good by making the rest of the Justice League incompetent idiots. Right? If not for his plot armor, how long would Batman last against a JLA menace by himself? Sure glad he has plot armor. What if Bruce and Clark played Monopoly? Is there a board game that Bruce would be better at? Clue? At least Bruce is shown as less naive, right?

Well, they could just have that much stuff going on the Justice League movie. Can't be in two places at once. Just need to not make Batman look useless. Like maybe there's a mystery involved, or he devises the strategy and then gets to eat popcorn ? Not really eat popcorn though, that might be silly.

edited 6th Jul '13 11:40:26 AM by bookworm6390

Give Superman only the powers of: More Powerful Than A Locomotive, Able To Leap Tall Buildings In A Single Bound, Faster Than A Speeding Bullet, Freeze Breath, Flight, X-ray vision, and Heat Vision.

Let him use those six powers creatively.

There's a better way to do that other than Deus Exit Machina.

The problem with any Superman vs Batman fight, as I've mentioned before, is that Superman looks bad no matter what. Even if he's brought down to Golden Age standards, that gives him more than enough abilities to take Batman out in .0001 seconds. If Batman, for any reason, lasts longer than that, it makes him look good and Superman look incompetent.

Superman would also look bad for either beating up some one weaker than him or get beat up by some one weaker than you. So, not a good situation for Clark to get into! What about a prank war?

A prank war between two superheroes, one who is a tactical genius of questionable sanity who excels at intimidation and fear tactics, the other a man with the ability to instantly fill your house with booby traps in the time it takes you to open the door and a surprisingly jovial sense of humor?

I think I'd pay for that comic.

edited 6th Jul '13 11:23:16 PM by KnownUnknown

If that ever happened, somebody would want to call in The Boys.