Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here
, plus the following:
- You don't PM moderators about stuff pertaining to the policies, except for thread reasons;
- We tolerate links to scanlation sites unlike in the rest of the site due to its purpose, although it's preferred to remove them when they have done their jobs;
- The forum is not a soapbox for your own views on the policy or on morality. Please leave them at the door.
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
- Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
- Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
- Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
- Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
- Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
- Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
- Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.
What we're looking for:
- Pure porn, or porn with an Excuse Plot only,
- Anything that has explicit underage sex,
- Implied sex of preteens or younger, and
- Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles (lolicon and shotacon fanservice can count).
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
- Do not list whole indexes or works just because they are on a certain index or have lolicon, H-Game or shotacon on their trope list.
- Do not list works you know nothing about without at least reading the trope page.
- Do not list works that you know are G-rated but you find creepy.
- If it's paedophile-pandering approximately how old are the characters involved? What happens? Is it graphic? Is it merely implied?
- List what objectionable content there is, and how much of the work consists of that.
- If it's entirely sex, say so. People have different ideas of what porn is. We all have the same idea of what a work being entirely sex scenes is.
- If you're not sure about a work, say so, or ask someone who does know that work. But don't make blanket accusations. Post here: "I don't know about this work, but the page says X".
- Google and Wikipedia are your friendsnote . Do a little digging on works you aren't sure about.
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
- When are the sex scenes located?
- Are they spread out over the game?
- How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?
- Are they only at the endings?
- How hard do you have to work to get an ending?
- Are they in every ending? Every good ending?
- Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?
- Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?
- Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?
- How explicit are the sex scenes?
- This isn't a headcount. Your opinion is only considered if it explains in at least some detail how you came to the conclusion that the work is/isn't porn/paedopandering.
- When a moderator determines that the discussion has yielded a consensus, they can enact its conclusion/ask a moderator to enact the conclusion.
- The discussion is only about whether the work qualifies as porn or as paedopandering. We don't assess anything else in this process.
.
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread.
Q. This episodic work isn't finished yet. Shouldn't we wait for the ending before discussing it?
A. No. If released instalments may violate the content policy, we want to take action as soon as that's established — we don't need to wait for the ending. We can always revisit a decision to cut or keep once the work is over, but that point might still be years or decades away.
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread for this.
- Guro: Violence played for titillation. (contrast Gorn)
- 5P or P5: The panel that administered the policy prior to the review system being overhauled in 2022. See 5P.
- P(a)edoshit: Older term for "P(a)edopandering", deprecated for being inflammatory.
- Porn: A work mostly concerned with sexual arousal. Having NSFW or explicit scenes doesn't automatically make a work porn — it's when showcasing explicit scenes is the entire point of the work.
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by Mrph1 on May 5th 2024 at 6:00:30 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Combined with the fact that there is little to trope abut in porn other then the sex.
Septimus Heap is currently working on a page that will answer all your questions.
edited 7th Sep '12 8:03:33 PM by shadis
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
To expand on that, the reason he doesn't want it here is because people were having a difficult time troping those sorts of works without getting all creepy about it and going into far more detail than was necessary.
Reaction Image Repository
Also, apart from being creepy it got us into trouble once or twice with the ad server. While that issue has largely been taken care of now it's understandable for FE to put a stop to that sort of thing now.
Cool Dude
So, in summary, it's more or less "We just noticed how big a problem it is while dealing with another problem, so now we're cleaning house while we're at it".
edited 7th Sep '12 8:25:51 PM by Raidouthe21st
We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)
I will just post this https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/ContentPolicy
It should answer most questions.
The reason I bring it up is because this is a wiki, and a wiki's purpose is to INFORM (capitalized because there are no italics or underlines) In this paticular wikis case it is to inform about all recurring themes in media (what you effectively refer to as "tropes") and the media itself. It's less a matter of support for pornography and more a matter of support for freedom of information. TV Tropes is, in my opinion, and I am sure many other's opinions, the best wiki around when it comes to fiction-related themes/works. I just don't like baseless censorship corrupting what is otherwise the best damn wiki around (forgive the vulgarity, I will not post many)
Lost in Space
We are not going to hold debates about the merit of having a content policy. That's decided. If you don't like it, you can leave and go elsewhere. TV Tropes will not host articles about pure pornography and content pandering to pedophiles.
Now, we welcome feedback regarding how best to implement this policy, which is what the thread is about. But complaining about the policy on the basis of "freedom of information" will get you nowhere. This is a private website and Fast Eddie can do whatever he wants with it. And while the content policy is not solely about appeasing Google, without their ads the wiki cannot continue to exist.
edited 7th Sep '12 10:41:44 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
The Fastest Man Alive
Two things: First, to use a metaphor I quite like, technically speaking, this is Fast Eddie's playground, and he just lets us play here. We have problems with pornographic works (and they're basically untropeable anyway), and he (rightfully so) objects on the grounds of common sense to works that pander to pedophiles. Those are the rules, and they're pretty reasonable.
Second, there are italics. ''You do them like this.''
Mod-ninja'd on the important bit.
edited 7th Sep '12 10:41:22 PM by BadWolf21
☆♥☆
I find the idea that porn is untropable kind of weird since plenty of the stuff we've cut for being porn had a bunch of non-sexual trope examples.
Honestly, I'd rather we just clean and lock any page not up to our standards rather than deleting them, but it's not my site.
Lost in Space
For the record, pornography has tropes. We had a whole index of them. The point is not that it's untropable, but that we don't want to talk about it on TV Tropes.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
☆♥☆
As I said, non-sexual tropes. There's been at least a few things we've cut for being porn (that I don't even necessarily disagree with) that could be talked about quite a bit without discussing sex, which is why I find it weird to say they're untropable or only porn/sex tropes. That's what I'm saying.
Forgive the misunderstanding, but I must have not made it clear, It is not my intent to complain, merely to express an opinion, seeded with a few facts. You say that you do not want tropes pandering to pedophiles, and that's good, the only problem is that you (TV Tropes) has "never" had pages that pandered to pedophiles. In all my time of searching different titles and tropes, never have I found a page that said, "This is a good <insert title of media here>. TV Tropes highly recommends this <insert title of media here>." Instead, it just listed what kind of media you were looking at, and what themes it had. Also, perhaps this is just my foolish opinion, but wouldn't people with such fetishes go directly to the source (I.E., the show) rather than just reading about it?
The Fastest Man Alive
The point is that Eddie doesn't want it, so it's not going to be here. It doesn't matter what has happened in the past, because the situation has changed since then.
R.I.P 2 My Youth
Irrelevant. As Fighteer said, this thread is for feedback and clarifications on the way we (the P5 and staff both) are implementing the policy. Take your complaints elsewhere. If you have either of those, please continue. Otherwise, you will be hollered for being off-topic.
Lost in Space
@om3ga109: TV Tropes was most definitely used to post entries that were essentially masturbatory in nature prior to us cracking down on them. If you give the impression that you permit creepy stuff on your site, it will come, and it will multiply. We learned this through hard experience.
Sorry for being blunt about this, but we get a lot of bad-faith complaints about the policy.
edited 7th Sep '12 11:05:58 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Again I am accused of complaining, I really don't know how you are reading my comments, but obviously it is in a way that is different than I posted them. I can see that my words are falling upon deaf ears, so I will let up for the night. I would like to thank some of you for being very helpful and explaining things in a friendly, calm, and concise way, and as for the others, I would like to thank you for your "great patience in taking the time to respond to my innocuous inquiries, it really helps me to gain an appreciation for the friendly atmosphere here at Tvtropes." <-(Sarcasm Mode) Good night, and whereas I am open to futher comments, I would appreciate it if they would be as non-confrontational as mine have been.
I think that many of the points you brought up have been brought up already many times in the past. I think that the FAQ in the sandbox will need a point about these so that we don't have to address them over and over again - I'll look into it.
Also, tdgoodrich1, can you moderate the tone of your posts a bit? They are getting rather confrontative lately.
ETA: Added the remaining FAQs to the sandbox.
edited 8th Sep '12 6:50:03 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I would like to respond to two people specifically, but at the same time not PM it so that all may see. First, Fighteer, I am sorry that you had to deal with that. I am not defending that kind of behavior, instead I am defending the people who are being punished along with the people who deserve it, because there were tropers I'm sure that just wanted to read about different pieces of media, and not get off on them (Just thinking about that weirds me out!) Also, Septimus, you are right. I am bringing up many of the same thoughts as people prior to me have, however, my purpose was to bring them up in a way that was not flaming or inticing arguments, but instead in a way that was cooly measured and level-headed. I don't wish to make your jobs harder by you having to deal with another thread-turned flame-war.
R.I.P 2 My Youth
I was admittedly overly blunt and apologize as such; however, the tone of your second post didn't do you any favors. As a rule I get suspicious of anyone whose first activity is to question why we have the policy because from what I have seen, those posts are almost never in good faith by my judgment.
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
I think I might have mentioned this in the first post of this thread, but we would appreciate it if people would read the General Annoucements post about this. When you re-read the first post here, you might be able to spot a link to that announcement.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Of course, as I have said, I do not wish to flame or troll, merely to state an opinion in a non-confrontational way. I must be concise in my posts, and can only post every ten minutes, so I'm sorry, my responses are limited; you must ask the right questions.
edited 8th Sep '12 8:51:47 AM by om3ga109
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
If you don't want to be confrontational, you should avoid Potholing to Sarcasm Mode when giving fake compliments to other tropers.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
I have ceased and disisted, and will continue to do so.
As an aside, how would you judge the quality of Content Policy, as a relative newcomer to the policy?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
edited 7th Sep '12 7:54:12 PM by Raidouthe21st
We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)