Misused: Never Speak Ill Of The Dead

I just came across this page as part of an unrelated clean-up, and I read through the examples in the Real Life section. I had a few issues with this.

For one, it seems intent on pointing out aversions of the practice. Isn't that counter to the point of the trope, to list when it doesn't happen in Real Life? Putting aside what one might think of Ronald Reagan and Jerry Falwell, showing that neither was subject to this trope misses the point.

But the other part that I find even worse is that there are several examples that are out-and-out cheerleading various deaths. I'm not about to say that Osama bin Laden should have lived. But I find that cheering for the death of any human being, no matter how despicable, is a level of rage and bloodlust that frankly disturbs me.

I'm of the belief that the entire Real Life section on this trope should be chopped; at most, I'd put a one-sentence note about it being traditional in many societies at the top of the trope.

• 1. Add something saying that some particularly evil people are vilified when they die but From a Certain Point of View.
• 2. Refocus this trope where you must praise the dead, or come off as evil. In media and videos of funerals, all of the comments are praising the (ex)person.
• 2A. Said comments are said mournfully and very sad. (Ocular Gushers optional, but encouraged)

edited 21st May '12 12:15:22 PM by spacemarine50

I don't think any of the "inverted" examples should be listed as examples. I think what this trope needs is example cleaning, not redefinition.

edited 21st May '12 3:51:00 PM by Prfnoff

There is an entire funeral etiquette that is a lot more than this trope. Watch any average funeral, and all of it will appear. You'll be noticed if you don't follow it.

@3 I don't think anyone was suggesting redefinition. I only really looked over the Real Life section, which I think should be zapped.

If there are enough aversions of this trope, maybe it'd be suitable to run it through YKTTW before cutting them.

Speak Ill of the Dead seems just right for aversions.

Huh... how long has that been around?

I'm fine with moving all in-media cases of speaking ill of the dead to the appropriate trope, but what do people think of the Real Life examples? Even with an appropriate trope there, I'm of the belief that those should be cut. It's just poor taste, even if we're talking about people that the vast majority finds objectionable.

I added it to the crowner list in the Special Efforts thread for Real Life Maintenance, where cases about removing or keeping Real Life examples are handled.

Edit: Currently waiting for new crowner, since the old one has too many obsolete options.

edited 22nd May '12 7:07:34 PM by Feather7603

Well something like a bunch of twitter users commenting on how evil the deceased is, then that's not really an example. However, I'd like to keep examples where someone says something in a form of a mass media about a dead person. Like Hitchens insulting Jerry Falwell.

I have a different question about this trope. This is Never Speak Ill of the Dead, but since we also have Speak Ill of the Dead, should we really have aversions on this page, instead of on Speak Ill of the Dead? Subversions, actual subversions, I can understand, but aversions (and inversions...)?

Okay, just looking through the music section, and it mentions a few real musicians. Where exactly is the line drawn for what counts as RL?

I'd say it depends on which direction it's in. If it's in the form of, "this artist gets subjected to this," then it's bad. If it's, "this artists complains about this other person," then it's an opinion that stands soley for the artist, and more okay in my book.

That's pretty much in line with what I've been deleting.

However, I did restore the Mark Twain example because I love it.

Well, the aversions should go on Speak Ill of the Dead, since that is its own trope... but even then, I think both should be in-work only. I'd rather avoid even noting famous people saying such things about other famous people... don't want a proxy insult battle.

Clocking due to lack of activity.

Well, the main issue (Real Life examples) has been solved.

What's left is basically figuring out where some examples (mainly aversions) should be, Never Speak Ill of the Dead or Speak Ill of the Dead.

Other than that, is there anything to do?

Aversions should go to the opposite trope.

Tsk, this sat here too long.

The aversion cleanup is a simple procedurethat can be done without this thread. Locking up.