Needs Help: Running The Asylum

The definition of "Running the Asylum" is rediculously subjective. At the moment, it reads "A sufficiently established franchise is indistinguishable from fanfiction", but the thing is, this is very subjective, since the quality of fanfiction varies wildly from "My Immortal" to "The Shape Of The Nightmare To Come". I really think it should be redefined to something more like "A sufficiently established franchise will eventually see most of the writing staff be from the former fandom", or something like that.

I remember that definition bugging me too when I first read it. I'm good with that change. It's not even much of a redefinition - just a re-wording.

That redefinition makes sense to me too. I think it will be a lot easier to focus on the non-subjective stuff if you focus on actual examples of writers of a work who formerly wrote fan fiction of the same work rather than how that work may fit certain fan fiction tropes *

edited 9th Mar '12 9:32:35 PM by LouieW

I'm inclined to agree.

There are negative feelings associated with fanfiction even among its participants, which is why I find it odd that people are so eager to apply the canon/fanfiction divide in places where it doesn't belong. Fanfiction is a specific understanding of fan work with certain connotations, not a universal term that can be applied in the relationship between creators and fandom. We should go with a less loaded, more general way of describing Running the Asylum.

That might also reduce instances of bad examples written as accusations of writers of making their fanfiction canon.

And finally, three quotes? Gosh.

The Alan Moore one is relatively new. I'd say get rid of that one, since it's all complaining, and could give people the idea that the trope is always bad.

I know the first quote is complaining too, but it's at least a lot more light-hearted.

Either way, the Moffat quote is perfect - that should stay for sure.

edited 9th Mar '12 10:30:46 PM by abk0100

Actually, that more fits Armed with Canon.

It doesn't, since there's no indication that he's actually fighting with others over cannon.

Still, I guess unless you know who he is, it's not really clear that it's about this trope either.

The funny thing is, the current definition is perfectly objective but sounds subjective. "A sufficiently established franchise is indistinguishable from fanfiction." Not "practically fanfiction" or "reads like fanfiction" or "as bad as fanfiction" but indistinguishable from fanfiction - it is fiction written by the fans.

This seems more like an idea for a sliding scale.

This, the description is fine. Its people who add loads to terms that don't need loads are the problem. And the examples are not "This is automatically bad", See Transformers Animated and ECW for "positive" examples. Good or bad is subjective, that fans start writing for their favorite franchises is not.

I do agree with that - the examples look good overall.

I still just think that first sentence is phrased weirdly. That's really my sole complaint.

"A long-established franchise that is now generating plots, story direction and other elements commonly found in fanfiction."

The problem with this is that it treats all fanfiction as if it were homogeneus, when it covers a huge spectrum in both kinds and quality: Gen Fic, Original Flavor, Slash Fic, Alternate Universe, Dark Fic, Troll Fic, etc.

edited 11th Mar '12 4:53:40 PM by Elbruno

The article really only covers the kind of fanfic that goes in wildly different directions from the original source. It means that as the franchise goes on long enough, you'll see stories you'd expect to see in fanfic.

Unless it's a porn fic, I'd expect the stories to stay within their own genre, so I'm not quite sure what the difference would be.

Of course, long running series do branch out into other genres, often at the whims of fans who thought it would be cools to see Goofy in a Final Fantasy crossover or Metroid as a Pin ball game. There are tone shifts by fans who want to make Star Trek hotter and sexier, or Star Wars into a romance. I still see no problem, the difference between that and fan fiction isn't merely a pay check though, it is also going through the process to getting published. So may be they won't always be indistinguishable but give a fan Protection from Editors and all bets are off.

In that sense, I say, yes, any sufficiently long running franchise is indistinguishable from fan fiction. If it hasn't quite hit that point yet, count yourself lucky (or not) but as long as it keeps going, that is a very real, objective occurrence that can happen as much as it is an objective occurrence for fans of a work to end up writing for it.

edited 11th Mar '12 6:48:33 PM by Cider

Bumping for great justice.

Didn't this go through TRS or something before?

Yeps

Err... so what should be done about this?

Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Rewrite the description to be less fan-fic centric and negative. "Fans becoming writers and doing things they always wanted to do with the story" is workable, if still leaning toward YMMV. There's no need to directly invite comparison to fan fiction.

People can draw their own conclusions. A troper can try to insert their opinion that "X work by fan-turned-writer is totally fanfiction they made canon", but it's just their opinion and would not belong on a TV Tropes. Right now, the page encourages that sort of example. There are positive examples, but they're written very defensively as if to say "but fanfiction can be good, see?", and they shouldn't have to be, because Running the Asylum IS NOT ABOUT FANFICTION.

Some people want to define Running the Asylum in terms of fanfiction to legitimize the practice of fanfiction by showing that writing for a franchise is basically licensed fanfiction. Other people want to define Running the Asylum in terms of fanfiction to justify Creator Bashing and Complaining using fanfiction's negative connotations. Those are agendas we don't want on the page, not elements of Running the Asylum itself. We can have a more neutral page if we leave out comparisons to fanfiction altogether.

Heck, it doesn't even need that much. Doesn't need to link to fanfiction and not even to writing (or plotting). The core of the trope is, if a franchise lives long enough, fans will eventually grow up to become members of its production staff. The trope proper doesn't even require that those stories by "fan directors" end up actually being published.

Actually, that's only half of what the trope is. The other half is: "the longer a work remains in publication, the more likely it will morph into something written more for the staff's appeal than original demographic and/or themes". There's definitely objective examples of that happening, but there's way more gray area than black and white.

This sounds like something that really should have been trivia.