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Definition drift (New Crowner 10/14/11): Water Works

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Bookyangel2438 from New York City
Nov 1st 2011 at 3:09:02 PM

If it's redirected, what about the trope? Will a new one be made?

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.
LordGro from Germany
Nov 1st 2011 at 3:15:20 PM

We could rename this page to Tears Of Weakness and make Water Works a redirect to Tear Tropes. How about that?

Let's just say and leave it at that.
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum
Wizard/Father of Tom
Nov 1st 2011 at 3:15:30 PM

Uhm... I have a problem with this crowner. The top two options are not mutually exclusive. I want to vote yes to both. Maybe that's why they both have lots of support.

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Nov 1st 2011 at 3:19:16 PM

[up] That's not a problem. Vote them both up and if they both have consensus we'll do them both.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
ArtemisStrong Wizard/Father of Tom from The Mended Drum
Wizard/Father of Tom
Nov 1st 2011 at 8:56:37 PM

[up]I... I thought... that was impossible! Thanks, shima, for pointing that one out. For some reason I was under the impression it negated your previous vote if you attempted it. Sure I read it somewhere.

This looks to be shaping up to be a fairly straightforward vote.

Get a slant at this glossary of Pulp Detective terms. It rates. Pipe that?
Nov 5th 2011 at 4:46:25 PM

This crowner's been stable for a while. Is this ready to call? As pointed out, the two highest scoring options aren't mutually exclusive.

MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from a place
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
LordGro from Germany
Nov 5th 2011 at 5:37:52 PM

Then is it okay to move this page to Tears Of Weakness or do we need another discussion/crowner on the name first?

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Nov 5th 2011 at 6:13:38 PM

[up]The old page's description won't suffice and there are almost no correct examples, so I think the best option would be to send it to YKTTW and start anew.

LordGro from Germany
Nov 6th 2011 at 6:57:04 AM

I'm preparing the YKTTW. I presume this thread can be closed.

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Nov 6th 2011 at 12:25:41 PM

The wicks still need to be cleaned, so this thread should probably stay open until that is finished.

LordGro from Germany
Nov 6th 2011 at 12:47:58 PM

As long as the new page is not through YKTTW and up, the links cannot be cleaned. Just saying.

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Nov 6th 2011 at 1:21:39 PM

[up]Entirely false statement. The links to Water Works are no longer useful. Expecially since they were crappy links to begin with. We're starting over. I have no clue what you're talking about.

LordGro from Germany
Nov 6th 2011 at 1:27:39 PM

I can't set links to the new page, as long as the page is not there. I mean, I could, but they'd appear red.— Not all of the old links were bad.

edited 6th Nov '11 1:28:33 PM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Nov 6th 2011 at 1:35:16 PM

[up]Very few (if any) of the old wicks were any good. Almost all of them are either simply "this person cries" or X Just X. This isn't a rename. It's a new beginning. The old trope was poorly defined and barely used correctly, so there's nothing really worth salvaging.

edited 6th Nov '11 1:35:34 PM by Insignificant

LordGro from Germany
Nov 6th 2011 at 1:52:53 PM

So what do you actually mean by cleaning up the wicks? You already redirected Water Works to Tear Tropes. And now you're going to delete all the wicks?

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Nov 6th 2011 at 2:09:55 PM

[up]Of course. Tear Tropes is an index. Since Water Works isn't a trope anymore, we can't have it being used as one.

ON A SIDE NOTE: Maybe I could report findings of any examples that could fit the new Tears Of Weakness trope whenever I'm cleaning up wicks. Although I doubt I'll find many; pretty much all of the ones I've come across so far are either simply "this person cries", X Just X, or fall under some other Tear Trope.

LordGro from Germany
Nov 6th 2011 at 2:21:59 PM

Maybe I could report findings of any examples that could fit the new Tears Of Weakness trope whenever I'm cleaning up wicks.
I'd suggest to kill the bad ones and leave the good ones. When the new page is ready, I can just collect them from the Tear Tropes wick page.

Well, it's not worth arguing about a few links, but actually you disregarded the outcome of the vote which was to redirect Water Works and to rename this page, not to delete it.

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Nov 6th 2011 at 2:30:46 PM

[up]There was no consensus to rename this page. Renaming is at a distant third place on the crowner. Consensus was to 1) "repurpose Water Works as a redirect to Tear Tropes" and 2) "restore the original definition". And that's what we're doing - repurposing Water Works as a redirect, and making a new Tears Of Weakness trope so that the original definition can be restored.

edited 6th Nov '11 2:38:12 PM by Insignificant

Nov 6th 2011 at 7:10:12 PM

Just cleaned up some more wicks. During my cleanup, I found three wicks that could be salvageable for the new trope, so I left them alone for now:

Manly Tears:

Contemptible characters may attempt to characterize these tears as Water Works; the effect is to make them even more contemptible. The crying character may also apologize for them as a sign of weakness.

Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane:

* In Brian Jacques's Redwall, Matthias addresses a tapestry showing Martin the Warrior about his weakness. When Cornflower appears to reassure him and say that his tears are not Water Works, he interprets this as a message from Martin.

Men Don't Cry:

Unmanly men may produce Water Works.

Nov 7th 2011 at 1:08:52 PM

Did some more cleanup. Salvageable wicks:

Sand In My Eyes:

Contrast: Manly Tears, which is admitted; Bad Dreams, where the hero really can keep it buttoned up ... while awake; Tender Tears of exquisite sensibility; and Water Works, where the tears really are a sign of weakness (though Water Works may be invoked by contemptible characters even when it really is Sand In My Eyes),

Talking to the Dead:

* In Brian Jacques's Redwall, Matthias addresses a tapestry showing Martin the Warrior about his weakness. When Cornflower appears to reassure him and say that his tears are not Water Works, he interprets this as message from Martin.

Tears of Fear:

Can be used in a serious sense to show a character becoming emotionally broken or a comedic sense to show the character as a big baby. Never used as a form of Manly Tears. May be Water Works.

Tears of Joy:

To many, tears are an expression of sadness or weakness.

Tears of Remorse:

May be a form of Manly Tears. Tender Tears combine when they are grief-stricken by minor injuries to others. Note that crying because you didn't get away with it is Water Works.

PlayingWith.Tears Of Remorse:

* Lampshaded: "Ah, his grief is sincere — as long as those aren't Water Works."

Tender Tears:

Also opposed to Water Works where the character cries because he is weak.

A favorite trope of the Romantic movement, who regarded it as a mark of exquisite sensibility. Scorning them — such as characterizing them as Water Works — is a mark of a callous and hard-hearted soul; even those who do not cry themselves can appreciate Tender Tears.

Nov 7th 2011 at 2:40:30 PM

Found some more salvageable wicks:

The Ultimate Fighter:

* Water Works: Many instances, but most famously Andy Wang, who bawled like a baby after losing his match, prompting his own coach, B.J. Penn, to make fun of him on national TV... and in fact, the episode title was "Waaaah!" This was, of course, after Penn yelled at the BJJ black belt the entire fight to go to the ground; Wang instead choosing to stand, bang, and lose.

Characters.Tokimeki Memorial 2:

* Water Works: Hikari was quite the crybaby in childhood days, and even though she stopped being one in High School, it still resurfaces in a few events. In her Ending, she reveals to the protagonist she pledged to herself to stop being a crybaby upon meeting him again, as she thought he would hate her if she kept on being like this. She then goes in I Promised Myself I Wouldn't Cry and Anguished Declaration of Love modes, only for the tears caused by this to become Tears of Joy when her Love Confession gets reciprocated by the protagonist.

Anime.Yu Gi Oh 5 Ds

** And Rua. He starts off an naive kid who admires Jack and cried whenever he lost a duel.

Well, I cleaned up all the wicks except for the salvageable ones for the new trope and Ranma whose wick I can't seem to find (stupid ptitle).

edited 7th Nov '11 2:51:14 PM by Insignificant

Chytus Very Fine Dodger from South Texas Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Very Fine Dodger
Dec 12th 2011 at 8:02:09 PM

Is cleanup finished, or can a mod lock it now?

LordGro from Germany
Dec 13th 2011 at 11:36:39 AM

I still haven't started the Tears Of Weakness YKTTW I promised (shame on me).

But I think this thread can be locked. The page is gone, and discussion on the new page will have to happen in YKTTW.

Let's just say and leave it at that.
Dec 17th 2011 at 6:38:51 PM

[up]We should at least keep this open until you actually have the YKTTW up.

edited 17th Dec '11 6:38:59 PM by MyTimingIsOff

14th Oct '11 6:16:56 PM

Crown Description:

Water Works is supposed to be about being held in contempt for crying, but it's constantly misused to refer to crybabies or crying in general. Misuse is so rampant that actual correct examples of the trope are rare.

Total posts: 52
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