Trope Description Improvement Drive

apologies for double. i just stumbled across Heaven's Devils and i feel like that should be added to the related tropes for the God-Karting with Beelzebub rewrite, but im not sure exactly how.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Aug 22nd 2022 at 10:15:57 AM

Cruel Cheerleader has multiple paragraphs essentially explaining "not all cheerleaders in Real Life" as well as a paragraph that explains writers use it "likely" because of Write What You Know.

Apart from that latter part making assumptions of writers that evoke the trope, the description itself is pretty long.

Would it be alright if I moved most of those sections to an analysis page and summarize the main points?

ETA: Looking at the page history, this seems to be a unilateral expansion of the description by TMNT Fangirl back in 2019. See here and here

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 24th 2022 at 7:07:14 AM

^^ I guess we can just have it as a "see also" trope and then briefly explain what the trope is about.

^ Sounds fine to me.

Final Boss starts with a list of YouTube music recommendations "to listen to while reading the page". Fifteen of them, to be exact.

'''To make this reading experience feel as climactic as possible, listen to either this, this, this, this, this,this, this,this, this, this, this, this, this, this, or this.'''

What should we do with this?

Edited by LordGro on Aug 25th 2022 at 10:56:42 AM

cut the whole thing.

i guarantee that list started with one or two suggestions and people kept adding their own favorite final boss music. leaving even one recommended link will cause the whole thing to spiral again.

It has started in 2020 and tbh if we need to update the video lists all the time (one of them is already taken down) then I'd just let the joke die.

Press Start to Game Over says that it can occur because of a Kaizo Trap, but how is that possible? the former is about being killed before you start playing and the latter is about being killed after you finish playing.

I agree. I'd move the Kaizo Trap mention to a "see also" section.

in the absence of any further opinions, im gonna go ahead and make the change. thanks Twiddler.

Could Cowboy BeBop at His Computer use a line "This trope is about the work being misinterpreted, not a work doing the misinterpretation. Be mindful of the example placement."? Due to this ATT. I get the explanation, but I don't find the description clear on this.

Do index descriptions count here? The Oldest Tricks in the Book's description says almost nothing about what it is an index of.

(x2) I like that idea.

I'm just trying to figure out what the index is. Is it an index of common old tricks? I (or someone else) might be able to write up something based on that.

Would they fit "Basic deceptions that work because the other person never bothers to check?" I have to say, this index is a bit assorted, and the title being a Stock Phrase with own meaning isn't helping.

I'm unsure if I like it tbh, though I feel it's an improvement over the current description.

Maybe this index needs TRS?

Necessary Weasel doesn't ever define what it actually is.

Full Explanatory Description Copied here:

Is it a:

• Bad trope that gets a pass because it's genre specific?
• Good trope that might be dead but gets a pass because it's in a particular genre?
• Trope that would be worth complaining about normally but isn't because of the genre?
• Annoying trope that gets a pass in any genre?
• Specific trope that is only okay in a specific genre?
• Generic trope that's only okay in a specific genre?
• Something else entirely?

The text goes from a non-definition straight into what the Necessary Weasel is related to.

I assume it's a Trope Namer as the actual name of the trope and accompanying example appear to have little to no explanatory power so the definition should really be clarified and properly articulated

Edited by Jetbent on Sep 3rd 2022 at 10:47:24 AM

It's not every time that the laconic accurately describes a trope, but in this case, I think the laconic is pretty good: "Illogical trope is a building block of a genre."

Put another way: tropes that are incorrect (if they are based on things that occur in Real Life) or highly implausible are near Omnipresent Tropes for certain genres with the strong implication that without them, the genre wouldn't make sense/would cease to exist.

Edited by amathieu13 on Sep 3rd 2022 at 1:55:51 PM

If the laconic is the only place it’s described, should it also be included in the actual page definition? Going to the page itself, the laconic is invisible without specifically clicking on it

It's the other way around, if the laconic mentions something that is not in trope description, the laconic is wrong. If the description is confusing, it should be cleared out first, then the laconic gets checked if it still works.

The main problem is that it relies Tropes Are Tools, which creates Sinkhole as readers have to be familiar with that concept first and they sholdn't be.

if you're asking however whether the description can be edited to more clearly state what it is about, then yes, that is something that can be done. Also Necessary Weasel does get explained similarly in the description of Omnipresent Trope.

In this case, I think adding a sentence in the intro paragraph would be enough.

Here's the varying and contradictory definitions of Necessary Weasel I've found so far:

• Omnipresent Tropes definition:
  If a trope is omnipresent, but only within a specific genre, you may be looking at a Necessary Weasel.

• Willing Suspension of Disbelief definition:
  Necessary Weasel: When the audience knows that the trope is unlikely/impossible/unrealistic, but is willing to accept it because it's just become part of the genre. Sure, Faster-Than-Light Travel is impossible, but if it means that Space Opera can take us to some creatively interesting parts of the universe quicker than several thousand human lifespans, we're willing to suck it up and go along with it.

• Necessary Weasel laconic definition:
  Illogical trope is a building block of a genre.

  Of course an unabridged version of this trope sounds stupid, but everyone expects it to be here.

• ^{Necessary Weasel actual definition} As a logical extension of Tropes Are Tools, many tropes that might otherwise come across as gratuitous, offensive or just plain wrong in most genres are considered not just accepted in certain genres, but are practically a part of the genre. Complaining about the simple use of the tropes (as opposed to particularly offensive variations) in said genres is rather short-sighted and pointless, since, well, it's in almost every other work in the genre. doesn't clearly explain what it is ... kinda seems one foot in one foot out on both

• This Repairshop Morgue thread about the misuse of acceptable breaks from reality from 2012 has several mentions of Necessary Weasel, all of which are slightly or vastly different from one another as well.

So the question that needs clarification... What is a Necessary Weasel?

• An illogical trope that only exists in a particular genre?
• Any trope that only exists in a particular genre?
• A trope that defines the only genre it occurs in?
• Any trope that is an Acceptable Break from Reality?
• Any trope that would normally violate Willing Suspension of Disbelief but doesn't because of the genre it occurs in?
• Some combination or other explanation?

It's still not clear.

I suspect that a necessary weasel is just an Acceptable Break from Reality or Willing Suspension of Disbelief trope but with the lingering appeal of a nostalgic Trope Namer. From what I can tell, it doesn't add explanatory power that isn't already encapsulated better elsewhere.

Acceptable Breaks from Reality seems to cover everything that the Necessary Weasel is but without Trope Namer ambiguity. All of the Necessary Weasel examples could easily be moved to a "Genre Specific" folder under Acceptable Breaks from Reality

Edited by Jetbent on Sep 4th 2022 at 11:48:25 AM

Omnipresent Tropes are tropes that almost always happen in a story, like The Protagonist or Final Boss.

Necessary Weasel are tropes that are ''unrealisitc or discredited everywhere except in certain genres". Boss-Arena Idiocy or Space Is Noisy may make no sense In-Universe, but are necessary to make it work for the audience.

Perhaps Necessary Weasel could be sent to Trope Repair Shop as no examples explain which genres are those examples are acceptable in and it may be redundant to the broader trope Acceptable Breaks from Reality which explains the concept better.

I've updated my reply two up with other definitions I've found and other discussions on it. I suspect that a necessary weasel is just a Willing Suspension of Disbelief trope but with the lingering appeal of a nostalgic Trope Namer. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem to add explanatory power that isn't already encapsulated from other tropes or definitions.

Acceptable Breaks from Reality covers everything that the Necessary Weasel is but without Trope Namer ambiguity.

All of the Necessary Weasel examples could be an Acceptable Breaks from Reality folder called "Genre Specific"

Edited by Jetbent on Sep 4th 2022 at 11:47:04 AM