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Removing Fan Myopia from Descriptions

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NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Sep 16th 2011 at 11:48:14 PM

I would really prefer a supertrope for 'object that lets a character transform in some way' and may have nothing to do with Super Heroes at all.

edited 16th Sep '11 11:48:25 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
troacctid "." from California
Sep 17th 2011 at 12:02:39 AM

[up] I believe Transformation Trinket covers that sort of thing, e.g. the Majoras Mask and Danny Phantom examples on the page.

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Raso Cure Candy
Cure Candy
Sep 17th 2011 at 12:18:45 AM

They shouldn't, these trinkets are their source of superpowers to fight crime after their Transformation Sequence and In the Name of the Moon.

Unfamiliar with Danny Phantom but Stuff like the Star Gate or Ratchet And Clank example and such were just things that let's you take other forms like a Disguise Trinket. (Sailor Moon had a Disguise Pen that was 100% different than her actual transformation trinket.) the two are very different even the broad description doesn't really cover it. These should only give you powers and super outfit into Frills of Justice, Super Heroes Wear Tight, and whatever the Toku outfits are.

edited 17th Sep '11 12:25:32 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Sep 17th 2011 at 12:34:42 AM

I definitely wouldn't call Majoras Mask a Transformation Trinket as I understand it unless you are going by the ultra broad 'thing that lets you transform somehow'.

With a Transformation Trinket (as I know it), the character has no powers or even fighting abilities before using the trinket, after using the trinket, the character has powers and costume and any changes to the character are slight cosmetic ones (e.g. different hair color). No Shape-shifting, or anything (which is a bit of a misnomer, this is really more of a Power Trinket + Cool Costume). I definitely think the Magical Girl variant is specific enough for it's own subtrope, which is why I suggest a supertrope for an object that lets you physically transform somehow, and while we're at it, one for an object that gives you special powers, and another for an object that gives you a costume.

edited 17th Sep '11 12:41:27 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
troacctid "." from California
Sep 17th 2011 at 12:42:15 AM

[up] Perhaps not the eponymous Majora's Mask, but, like, the Deku and Goron masks or whatever seem accurate enough.

Rhymes with "Protracted."
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Sep 17th 2011 at 1:56:48 AM

Um, don't they literally transform him into Dekuas and Gorons? No, that's totally different from a Transformation Trinket. Transformation Trinket just adds a costume and powers and a few cosmetic differences at most. It's not a physical transformation.

It's probably the name that is misleading you guys. There's really no 'transformation' involved in it. There's a serious difference from a 'an object that physically transforms you into another person/being/creature' and 'an object that gives you a cool costume and activates your powers.' Certain western superheroes might fit the later, but the Zelda certainly doesn't. Neither does the Danny Phantom one, which turns the guy into a freaking dragon.

We should probably do a trope transplant here. Make Transformation Trinket into what you guys are mistaking this for and then make a new trope with a more accurate name for the Magical Girl/ Super Hero variant. Green Lantern's ring, for example, would fit the current definition of Transformation Trinket, I beleive. It's an object (a ring) that gives you powers and a cool costume and green eyes, but doesn't otherwise transform you into anything.

edited 17th Sep '11 2:02:03 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
Sep 17th 2011 at 2:55:20 AM

In short, it's a common problem where someone finds a pattern in their favourite medium, but turns out there's a broader, less specific version lingering in all media.

Personally I think the fact that in Japan they use jewellery instead, etc. is not that big a deviation. I suggest expanding the trope and dedicating a paragraph or two in the description for these subtleties.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Sep 17th 2011 at 2:58:06 AM

[up]Jewelry use is not the difference, in fact it has nothing to do with the definition, even many Japanese examples don't use jewelry. Plenty of these things do use jewelry anyways, even ones that don't fit because it involves full-blown Shapeshifting, which isn't the trope, so your argument means nothing one way or the other.

edited 17th Sep '11 3:00:59 AM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
Sep 17th 2011 at 3:07:49 AM

I was referring to #16, but maybe it's a bad example.

What I meant is, the Japanese flavours/twists/conventions on the trope are not enough (based on my observation) to justify it as a separate trope entirely. We should just expand the trope like many have suggested ("rewrite/dejapanify") and note the Japanese conventions in a paragraph or two.

But wait, do we have a trope for the "things that make you transform" thing in general?

edited 17th Sep '11 3:09:56 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
ThatHuman someone from someplace
someone
Sep 17th 2011 at 3:16:32 AM

@Troacctid:I thought Danny didn't use any devices and stuff to transform?

something
suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
Sep 17th 2011 at 6:36:42 AM

[up][up]I agree with Catalogue. Discussing the unique or distinctive flavors that a trope has in Japan (or any other culture for that matter, be it Japan, Mexico, America, whatever) is a Good Thing. The problem is that it sometimes becomes a "tail that wags the dog."

Jet-a-Reeno!
Raso Cure Candy
Cure Candy
Sep 17th 2011 at 1:07:49 PM

[up][up][up] My point in post 16 was that before it said paraphrasing "Magical Girl's devices tend to be more girly with crystals and jewelry but really it could be anything..." which was changed to just female yada which is untrue it's all based on the targeted audience a Sentai series with a girl will use the same devices the guys use. Magical Girl which is aimed at girls will be more girly to sell toys to girls and an accessory for the Frills of Justice Costume Porn. Whatever you think you can market to your target audience basically and there arnt many aimed at girls that follow this trope that are not Magical Girl or at least a reference to it. (If any at all) As well as it removed all references to a genre that uses these.

And not really this should be strictly about the transforming device to become a hero just transforming into x is not enough for this at all and is treated very differently, often times removable with a single hit in video games, and the bad guys arnt likely to want to get ahold of these to have the advantage.

Transforming device transforming you into a hero can appear in western works but not that often really many chose other ways like already have powers or Clothes Make The Super Man, it's become more popular though copying Japanese works.

edited 17th Sep '11 1:33:58 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Sep 17th 2011 at 1:09:37 PM

Other way around, Raso. It showed up in Japanese works after being stolen from Western comics where it's still very popular and always has been.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy
Cure Candy
Sep 17th 2011 at 1:30:03 PM

There are a few but not alot really that follow this yes like some incarnations of Thor reading that entry but things like Green Lantern or are those are just powered by their trinket which is not this. And Wonder Twins wouldn't fit as well.

Anyway my point is it shouldn't be that broad. Super Hero, Magical Girl, Sentai, Henshin Hero types mainly.

edited 17th Sep '11 2:13:56 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Sep 17th 2011 at 1:47:15 PM

I don't mean the Green Lantern. I mean things like the original Blue Beetle. He was using this trope in 1964 and it's been in heavy use in the comic book industry both before and since. He had a blue beetle talisman and it turned him into a superhero. That's the trope. It's really common in comic books. Yes, there are a couple of bad examples in the comic book folder, but there are far far more than have never been added because people have some bizarre idea that this is specific to Japan, and have written the article to fit that.

edited 17th Sep '11 1:47:30 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Sep 17th 2011 at 2:49:01 PM

It's not specific to Japan, the "unique flavors" aren't even unique to Japan. It IS specific to Henshin Hero, Sentai, Super Hero, Magical Girl and such though, as Raso says. Meaning a lot of the western examples are wrong. And pretty much every example you guys are giving is wrong, which confuses me because there ARE western ones that fit, like Green Lantern as I stated. "Random Item that physically turns you into some other creature", is NOT this trope. This trope is "item a character has which gives them powers and a cool costume which they then use to fight evil." Basically. This occurs outside of Japan often enough and yes the emphasis on Japan needs to be lessened or removed.

On a side note, that picture on the page explains nothing.

edited 17th Sep '11 2:58:23 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Catalogue A pocketful of saudade. from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
Sep 17th 2011 at 10:37:59 PM

Which is why I asked whether we have a trope for literal transformation items. If we do, then yes, it shouldn't be that broad and may become a Sub-Trope. If we don't, there's no reason to keep it that specific.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Sep 18th 2011 at 1:54:52 PM

The word 'trinket' really seems to me to imply the type of small object that the character carries around with them as part of their clothing, which usually implies the Henshin Hero type of transformation item, not the turns you into another creature type of item, to me, which can be anything, and it often a one off thing they woudln't carry around with them. We should make a super trope instead.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Sep 18th 2011 at 2:01:13 PM

Supertropes are always a good thing. Henshin Hero needs some redirects though as well as a little less Japan focus. The same character type is really common in Western comics and has been for decades.

edited 18th Sep '11 2:01:25 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros
Azor Ahai
Sep 18th 2011 at 9:10:26 PM

Saw this thread, and since (I think) it's still not possible to make a new TRS thread, I wanted to bring up Implausible Hair Color. That one may have an excuse to be anime-centric, but I think it could use some improvement.

edited 18th Sep '11 9:11:52 PM by Jordan

Hodor
Sep 18th 2011 at 9:59:49 PM

I was going to just cut out the references to anime, but I think the entire second paragraph needs to be re-written. It doesn't make much sense right now.

Also, can we change the thread title to something less specific, like "Removing Fan Myopia from descriptions" or something? There's no reason to start one thread for anime, another for descriptions that read like a Star Trek synopsis, and so on.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Sep 19th 2011 at 1:33:55 PM

Shouldn't the reference to Anime be restricted to the Related Tropes section with a pothole to You Gotta Have Blue Hair?

Fight smart, not fair.
Sep 19th 2011 at 1:51:21 PM

How's this?

Some characters have hair colors that are possible, but very uncommon for the setting, like blond and orange in feudal Japan. The show is otherwise realistic, but the writers don't want all the characters to have the same hair colors.

This trope shows up mostly in Asian works, since hair colors other than black or dark brown are still quite rare there, but is by no means limited to that part of the world. A black character with blonde hair would be a good example.

Usually, this is at least a little justified. The character might have foreign parents, or something more interesting. Other times, the reasons are left to the viewer's imaginations.

When hair colors become humanly impossible, we have You Gotta Have Blue Hair.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Sep 19th 2011 at 1:52:34 PM

I like that. You might want to put, something about dye in there too.

edited 19th Sep '11 1:53:00 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Raso Cure Candy
Cure Candy
Sep 19th 2011 at 1:58:07 PM

Hair dye does not exist unless it's a plot point or a Bleach Blonde Delinquent in anime. [lol]

edited 19th Sep '11 1:59:42 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

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