Marvel Cinematic Universe

I think the problem with Hank is, his only consistent and noteworthy characterization *is* the near-supervillain traits. When he's not being neurotic or building death robots, his personality is only barely there. This is why the version in EMH has almost no basis in the comics: they basically created the personality from scratch. Sadly, the result is a character whose dislikable for entirely new reasons, IMHO.

I agree with everything, except the last sentence, since I don't know what you mean by dislikeable. But yes, it is your opinion. I like Hank being Adorkable.

It sucks being a fan of a Scrappy.

edited 10th Aug '11 6:29:33 PM by StarOutlaw

Hank Pym is only really pushed by Marvel because he is a Kirby-Lee creation, and therefore automatically special. Because he exists in an industry in which inertia is paramount, Hank Pym continues to be used despite a lack of public interest or renown, iconic imagery or archetypal appeal, an important role to fill in the Marvel Universe (what with the more popular Mr. Fantastic and Iron Man around), iconic stories, stable titles, or even a stable heroic identity or code name.

edited 10th Aug '11 6:45:07 PM by MatthewTheRaven

Being that my only exposure to Hank has been Earth's Mightiest Heroes and his short interaction with Captain America and Falcon during the Civil War segment of The New Avengers, I see no reason to dislike him, seems to be a primarily ordinary guy who prefers to not fight and just wants to be left to his SCIENCE. It's less of a dislikable character and more of a "Why do I care" character, though admittedly EMH made him more interesting. Still won't convince me to pick up a comic just because he's starring in it though.

If a Dr. Pym movie is coming to be, then I'll take a looksee and see what can be done, though I get the feeling a Dr. Pym story would be stronger involving Janet or something involving perhaps if it has to be a solo film then it'd be him fighting personal demons involving Utopia Justifies the Means, like a film where he creates Ultron but comes to realize that he's invented a monster and becomes Ant-Man/Giantman to combat what he's made.

I too tire of his Never Live It Down wife beating thing. If it's a single incident that has plenty of context explained to us, there's no reason to humiliate the character by never letting it go. I mean Ultimates took it to it's logical extreme and made him a jerkass trying to kill his wife. Ultimates was never great to begin with but my god people.

edited 10th Aug '11 6:46:56 PM by MousaThe14

As much as I do like Pym, I do agree that he's only half as interesting without Janet. A movie that stars both of them (like the one I outlined a page back) would be cool. Then there could be a superhero love story that averts the Romantic Plot Tumor, since the romance would be the plot. Like Matthew Raven said, it should be done as a love story, and that can work if Janet has as much focus and importance as Hank, instead of just being the supporting love interest.

The way I see it, for the kind of film I have in mind, Pym could be a brilliant scientist, but because of some past history he lacks confidence and isn't very assertive. He's made breakthroughs, but can't seem to take credit he deserves, so he's still just a researcher for Van Dyne. Maybe the villain for the film can be the scientist who has been taking credit for Hank's discoveries.

Hank's lack of confidence would also make him nervous around Janet, who's a Rich Bitch socialite. As they get to know each other better, Janet could make Hank be more assertive. At the same time, Hank could teach Janet to be more humble, if he's the only person to whom she can talk about her mutant powers.

I really don't think they should use Ultron that early. Save him for Avengers 2.

I agree Ultron should be saved for later, I guess that for a solo film it would make for an excellent tragic story that still details the personality of thee character. I do like your idea though and would make mroe sense.

Though I also believe that the film should be sort of co-run and be not just an Ant-man film but an Ant-man and Wasp film.

If the villain is a jealous fellow researcher, it has to be Egghead. He's an easily-angered scientist with a hatred of Pym. He wouldn't be much of a fight though, so he would have to create some threat. Ultron would be vest for an Avengers movie.

I still don't understand the Hank Pym hate. Any accusation of infidelity, abuse, or experiments-turned-evil can be equally applied to many other heroes in this same world.

Ultimate Hank Pym, though, he's just a jerk.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a comic expert, but isn't Jerkass kind of the default behavior of Ultimates characters?

^^ Hell, normal Reed Richards is a total jackass, and he doesn't get anywhere near the hate Pym does.

Reed Richards Is Useless?

Reed also gets his fair share of trolling, like Everyone preferring Doctor Doom or the rest of his family more, a Thinly Veiled Parody in Professor Richard Impossible (he uses his brother-in-law, who can feel the flames, as an eternal battery), and generally just being portrayed as a prick in my experience.

edited 12th Aug '11 12:30:23 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Reed Richards is, at least, exactly as good as he thinks he is. Pym tends to have a bigger ego, despite not having cred like "recreated the universe."

When did Reed recreate the universe and the ultimate verioson of Reed is a supervillian.

IIRC, it was during the Abraxas debacle. In order to save the universe, Reed needed to use the Ultimate Nullifier to destroy the entire universe, and then his own mind as the mechanism for reassembling the whole thing. He later voluntarily blocked out his memories of having done so, because while his mind was capable of encompassing the sum totality of the universe, he couldn't maintain that perspective and a human one at the same time. He choose to be a human, rather than God.

Braniac and Lex would hate his ass.

Is there a trope when a character seeks to know everything? And or destroy the original? This would also apply to the Brains in Futurama.

Well, the later would be some form of Omnicidal Maniac, I imagine.

And, really, Lex Luther would hate Reed *anyway*. Lex prides himself on being the pinnacle of humanity, the 'true' super-man, the guy whose brain lets him stand atop the world. And while he is used to having rivals and peers, they are *peers*.

Marvel? There's guys who make his vaunted intellect look like a gnat by comparison.

Oh, and as for EMH Hank Pym, I dislike him because he is a particularly irksome variant of low-wisdom pacifist who mostly exists to cause trouble. The fact that his intro minisodes *really* didn't cast him in a good light at all did not help.

Ultimate Pym at least designed the hover carriers that SHIELD used. So he managed to do at least one cool thing in his life.

I have to agree with metaphysician on the pacifist thing though. Pacifists always irritate me when the work goes out of its way to show they're right.

I'm pretty sure EMH doesn't do that and if anything goes to show how wrong he can be.

You're correct. However, this just means that whenever the show focused on Pym, I groan because he's about to do something stupid. I'm just glad they don't hand him *that* many deus ex machina victories, like at the end of Living Legend. The writers totally should have had Thor save the day by freezing the thing.

Thor can freeze things? Is that something from the comics? I don't think he can do that in EMH.

I only remember one stupid thing EMH Pym did, when he tried to reason with the Serpent Society. He was naive to believe that because he had tried to rehabilitate them they would listen. Even then he probably wanted to avoid injuring the hostages, plus he gets called out for it. I like the way EMH makes Pym's pacifism both a strength and a flaw; he's able to see things from a different perspective than the other heroes, but at the same time it causes him to make mistakes because he lacks knowledge about people and the real world. He assumes that he already knows the best way to make the world better, but his failures are forcing him to learn otherwise. Hank drops the pacifism whenever Wasp is in danger, so it's not his top priority.

You don't have to like it, but it does make him a well rounded character. After the Ultron disaster he's given up. His whole character development is based around balancing his ideals with practicality. Ultron is a twisted version of himself, being practical to the point that he completely misses the point. Now all he cares about is Wasp. His next stage in character development is learning that his ideals weren't a hopeless cause. Maybe some villains really will reform and form the Thunderbolts. He'll definitely become Yellowjacket first though and turn into a jerk, since being a nice guy up to that point has only caused him tragedy. So for a while, he'll start believing violence is the only answer, which will just make him like Ultron.

I think that EMH Hank Pym is a more balanced take on a pacifist. Most examples of pacifists I've seen in other shows and films either portray them as the pinnacle of morality and completely in the right, or as naive idiots that are impractical and used as strawmen. Neither are very good portrayals. Hank has good intentions, but does not yet have the wisdom to achieve his goals in the correct way.

And I liked his minisodes. (I need to stop writing so damn much)

edited 14th Aug '11 10:03:02 AM by StarOutlaw

Thor can control the weather. Ice storm, yo. Makes much more sense than "completely random energy-based deus ex machina, from *Pym* rather than Stark even."

Seems you are right that Thor can create ice storms in the comics, but he still seems to be unable to do much weather manipulation in EMH besides thunderstorms. Besides, having that tacked onto super strength/invulnerability/flight/lightning/magic hammer/hundreds of years of combat experience just seems superfluous. If Thor was capable of that, it depends on if he could create an ice storm actually cold enough to freeze it without freezing everyone else in the surrounding area, assuming the blob creature has a freezing point lower than zero Celsius. Then that might have made more sense.

If Iron Man's armor, Black Panther's suit, and Hawkeye's arrows can have a plethora of different devices for numerous situations, I don't find it unbelievable that Pym can adapt his helmet for other uses besides talking to insects. And it's not completely random. He just adjusted the frequency of the waves normally used to command insects and increased the power output to have a destructive effect on a creature that he knows has a weakness to that. Iron Man's repulsors did more damage when readjusted, so it's not like Pym's helmet did all the work. Yes, it's an energy attack, but his helmet already has to use a form of energy to command insects.

And Stark wouldn't have known to do that because he works with machines and not biochemistry like Pym.

edited 14th Aug '11 3:04:02 PM by StarOutlaw

That's the accurate one.

Yes, because that describes every pacifist ever, doesn't it?

I file EMH Pym under Technical Pacifist, who makes some stupid mistakes because he's human and that's what humans tend to do.