WarriorPoet: too many examples belong in CulturedBadass: Warrior Poet

The Trope description, particularly the Laconic, outlines very clearly that the trope is not about a badass who enjoys poetry. That's not enough. It's about a particular philosophical outlook bordering on pacifism. A Warrior Poet is a character who can and will fight, but yearns for a more peaceful world, and believes that a more peaceful world would be a better world, typically as a result of an epiphany or spiritual enlightenment of some sort, and often in a way that puts them at odds with others. In short, a warrior who has grown out of bloodlust.

Many of the examples, and indeed some of the quotes and comments, seem to fit more into Cultured Badass instead (a trope about a badass with an appreciation for finer things, but not necessarily a philosophical outlook). The caption of the image - "He's writing a beautiful poem. Laugh and he'll gouge your eye out with the brush" - does not sound very much like "a badass who enjoys peaceful, philosophical times". Any number of examples - perhaps even the majority - describe characters who are badass and just happen to like art of some sort.

Suggestions:

1) Move the obvious Cultured Badass entries about badass art enthusiasts to Cultured Badass.

2) Edit the trope description to warn people against adding an example that belongs in Cultured Badass.

3) If the resulting, cleaned list ends up too short, and to make the trope name less misleading, widen the definition to include all kinds of badasses for whom a tendency to wax philosophical (in general, not just pro-peace) for a particular world view is a driving character trait, as opposed to something they do as a hobby from time to time. This is what I mean by "driving character trait": If the philosophy thing is something that has a major impact on the character's decisions, motivations, and their role in the main plot, it belongs in Warrior Poet. By contrast, if it doesn't have an active role in shaping events and is just there to round them out/make them more interesting/serve as a convenient plot hook or a Chekov's Gun, it belongs in Cultured Badass.

Opinions?

edited 3rd Aug '11 6:16:30 PM by Hekateras

Description modified slightly. It's always a good idea to fill out the "related tropes" paragraph, it is one of the main ways to prevent bad examples. You don't need a TRS for that either.

Fight smart, not fair.

To be frank, isn't the definition of Warrior Poet on this page rather idiosyncratic?

To my understanding, a "Warrior Poet" means first and foremost "a warrior who is also a poet".

I don't feel that a "warrior poet" has to yearn for a more peaceful world, or that he necessarily believes that a more peaceful world would be a better world, etc. Nor do I think being at odd with his fellow-warriors is a necessary characteristic of a Warrior Poet.

This definition assumes that every warrior is blood-lusty, and I don't think that's the case either (this feels like equating "warrior" with Blood Knight).

edited 4th Nov '11 4:17:17 PM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Anybody mind if I add Warrior Philosopher as a redirect? I think it might help. Note also that Warrior Poet is a pre-existing term.

Yes, it is a pre-existing term. I don't know what it means to other people, but I tried to describe what it means to me in my post above. For that understanding, the trope description is too narrow. And judging from the example list, many people seem to think similarly.

For the same reason, I would not recommend Warrior Philosopher as a redirect. A Warrior Poet to me is a poet, not (necessarily) a philosopher.

Edit: In fact, to me Warrior Poet is a specific subtrope of Cultured Badass.

edited 4th Nov '11 4:46:15 PM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

I agree. I've never, ever heard Warrior Poet used to mean anything other than a warrior who is also a poet. All the stuff about philosophy bordering on pacifism seems to be rather unique to this page.

Somebody really got their essay on.

Fight smart, not fair.

I think the "Pacifist Warrior" trope is actually covered in Martial Pacifist (didn't read it all the way through, though). The current trope description of Warrior Poet says "Compare Martial Pacifist, who can be brutal as long as he doesn't kill", but it seems this should actually say "Technical Pacifist", not Martial Pacifist.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Technical Pacifist won't kill you, but won't hesitate to beat you up (Batman). A Martial Pacifist is more closely related to Beware the Nice Ones.

Fight smart, not fair.

Exactly. The current laconic

and trope description of Warrior Poet is rather similar (too similar, if you ask me) to Martial Pacifist, with its laconic and a description saying Martial Pacifist is predominantly coined on martial artists (though not exclusive to them, judging from the laconic definition). Otherwise, the distinction seems to be weak. This is because the current Warrior Poet definition focuses on "pacifism" while dropping the "poethood" more or less completely.

edited 24th Nov '11 7:33:39 AM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Warrior Poet = Philosophy major that fights. Often writes or quotes poetry. (Just liking art and poetry is not enough)

(Since obviously if you are philosophical you write poetry, and if you write poetry you are philosophical)

Never heard of this being about pacifism before.

That whole description was bad, it kept talking about things that aren't required to be a Warrior Poet. Not even in the broader Warrior Philosopher version.

I mean, the person it described could indeed be a Warrior Poet, but not every warrior poet has to be unappreciated, nor does he have to be a prophet or a pacifist.

Completely rewrote it. Probably too dry and historical perspective, and not enough on how it's used in fiction. But a much better beginning for future rewrites.

edited 24th Nov '11 10:13:22 AM by Sackett

Thank you Sackett! I think this rewrite is quite good. But you left the last paragraph unchanged. Does anybody agree with my opinion that Warrior Poet is a subtrope of Cultured Badass? If yes, then I'll rewrite the paragraph.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Well... usually it's a subtrope.

I'm trying to think if there is ever a time when it isn't a subtrope...

Bump.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

The rewrite is good, but in my opinion, the distinction between Warrior Poet and Martial Pacifist need to be pointed out as well.

Something like that:

• Martial Pacifist studies the ways of fighting, but dislikes aggression. Will use his martial experience to kill you if you attack, though.
• Warrior Poet views all aspects of life, including fighting, through a prism of poetry and philosophy. Will chop you up with his sword while composing a haiku on the futility of bloodshed.
• Cultured Badass is just a fighter who happens to like the finer things in life. Will break your ribs, trash your home and kick your dog, and then leave to enjoy a night in the opera.

Part of the problem is that the actual definition ("He's fought in battle and is no slouch at war making, but he thinks about the purpose behind all the bloodshed and philosophizes on the meaning of life and death") doesn't come until the third paragraph. The definition should be the first thing in a trope description, every time.

Here's a rewrite: Sandbox.Warrior Poet

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Should add that to the subtle trope differentiations list

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

@Noir Grimoir: Hm, you think so? But I'm not quite sure I got all the subtle differences right

Bump

Clock's ticking.

I think this trope still needs a clearer definition. More specifically, how literal is the "Poet" in "Warrior Poet" to be understood? Currently, the example section lists cases of the following:

• Is a singer/performer/reciter, minstrel (but does not compose himself)
• Is a good musician, dancer, hair stylist, art restorer, art historian, calligraphy artist, painter, sculptor, actor, writer etc (but not an actual poet)
• Reads a lot, loves poetry, frequently quotes poetry/literature (but does not compose poetry himself)
• Enjoys art and artistic exercises (but does not compose poetry)
• Is a philosopher, or thinks a lot about philosophical themes; "is philosophical and thoughtful"; likes to wax philosophical (but not lyrical)
• Is very learned, wise, and/or a scholar/scientist
• "Is sensitive and likable"; is "a softie"
• Is a "poetic soul" (whatever that means)

I think that many examples stretch the term 'Warrior Poet' too far, but I don't quite know where we draw the line on the continuum between "poet" in a literal sense and all the possible figurative meanings of "poet".

edited 20th Apr '12 5:50:00 PM by LordGro

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Hmmm, looks like we forgot to set the clock here. Let's give it another go.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

Locking up.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.