Rename due to ambiguity: Red Baron

This was brought up in the discussion to move the movie to the film namespace, but I think that it's notable enough to get its own thread.

The trope has to do with a character that's so badass that they're only known by their nickname, with one of the most famous examples being the Red Baron himself. The problem is that the name "Red Baron" makes you think of a trope that has to do with ace pilots or something, "badass nicknames" would be far down the list for most people. (As an added incentive toward renaming, the name almost shares its name with the movie The Red Baron.)

One of the redirects is simply "Badass Nickname", which could be used as a much clearer title.

So, what does everyone think?

Do you have any proof to backup your claims? I've run into this trope a few times already and it was never a misuse. There is 600 wicks, so so we should look on it carefully.

No, I don't necessarily mean ambiguity from an editor point of view. For all but the popular tropes, it's reasonably uncommon for people to use a non-Exactly What It Says on the Tin trope term before checking its definition anyway, so it probably has very little potential for misuse.

The problem is moreso from a reader point of view. It's been quite a while, so I don't remember what page it was on, but the first time I encountered the trope was when it was listed like "Red Baron: The Electric Eagle, also known as Bob" (it was like that, it wasn't actually that). I had thought at the time that Bob was some sort of ace pilot or something (with the nickname of "Electric Eagle") and it was only due to curiosity that I clicked on the trope and found that it had nothing to do with what I thought.

So yes, it's very YMMV, but I simply feel that it's inherently not a very descriptive title, and I wanted to know what others thought.

edited 13th Apr '11 11:21:00 PM by Unknownlight

It does have a 6:1 ratio of wicks to inbounds, which leads me to wonder how well this is resonating outside of the wiki. Some of the 100 inbounds it has could be from confusion over The Red Baron as well.

Additionally, Badass Nickname is already used on over 100 pages, which is pretty good for a redirect.

edited 14th Apr '11 5:17:49 AM by Meeble

I prefer badass nickname - much clearer descriptor.

Badass Nickname is a bit misleading, the point of the trope is that the character is famous by this nickname. Epithet is another redirect, and it means this.

Infamous Nickname would be better, if we really must rename this, but unless it is commonly misused, I don't think that we have to.

Badass Nickname is indeed misleading.

Only Known By Their Badass Nickname?

This is a joke, right? Right?

Anyway, I don't rename stuff based on personal opinion. There have been no problem so far. I a lot of readers were misunderstanding it, a good number of editors would so as well. And, if it was the case, there would be misuse. No misuse as far we can tell, so this trope is fine.

Yes, that is a joke, right.

Found it misused (or rather, they were trying to misuse the trope but ended up misusing the work instead) to mean the historical figure on the following pages while cleaning up The Red Baron wicks:

• Anno Dracula
• Even Better Sequel
• Flyboys
• Four-Star Badass
• Mystara
• Officer and a Gentleman
• Ramming Always Works
• Red Baron (ironically)

That's out of 30 wicks that were for the trope rather than the film, so about 27% misuse.

It's also worth noting that the trope is currently defined as the character is more famously known by their nickname, which definitely doesn't match up with the use. People are using it for any character with a nickname, period, especially if the nickname sounds cool. We either need to broaden or give it a clearer name.

If needed, I can check Red Baron wicks, too.

edited 15th Apr '11 9:58:58 AM by ccoa

How about Everyone Knows His Nickname? That covers the aspect of the trope which is - "His mere nickname provokes a reaction."

I think, there are at least three elements for this trope:

1. It's a famous name
2. It's at least somehow badass. (at least not belittling)
3. It's a meaningful term, not any nickname like "Lil' Jimmy", or "Coco"\\

edited 15th Apr '11 12:33:58 PM by EternalSeptember

I vote for expanding the definition. It's a little bit unclear right now—is someone only known by their badass nickname allowed to have a normal name? What if people on his side use his real name, but his enemies always call him by the badass nickname? I just think it would make more sense to expand it to a Badass Nickname in general, which I do not believe is currently a trope.

I did notice a few instances where the nickname wasn't all that badass, like "Lucky Dog" or "The Magician." But since being badass isn't currently a part of the trope I didn't count them as misuse.

That's true. Any name change will probably require some cuts. I don't think "the Earl of Pudding" is either badass, or meant to be badass.

I was aganst renaming because the title really does tell this trope but not everyone seems to get that if the misuse is as bad as you say.

Infamous Nickname might work although Infamy more implies " Really Bad Reputation" But these guys are feared and loved by there respective sides sometimes respected and feared by both sides or just respected by both sides.

Depends on the context of the situation. If its a Cooking Duel then it could be just that.

edited 16th Apr '11 4:03:05 AM by Raso

If the only present misuse is just mixing up Red Baron and The Red Baron, but any rename would necessarily redefine the trope, how about adding some words to it instead?

Red Baron Fame, Red Baron Title, They Just Call Him Red Baron, etc.

That isn't the only misuse. As I said, people use it for any character with a nickname, badass optional, whether it's how he's more famously known or not. Unfortunately I can't count this misuse, because it's often hard to tell on characters I'm not familiar with. Take, for example, the entry on The Inquisitor General, for Victor Cachat. He does indeed have various badass nicknames, but he isn't more famously known by any of them. Or Lucky Dog 1, where the character's nickname is "Lucky Dog", which isn't badass by any stretch.

Renaming wouldn't redefine the trope, but if we leave it as is we should broaden it since people seem bound and determined to use if for what I said above. I have no particular objection to keeping the Trope Namer and adding context, though.

Also need to bring up Nom de Guerre, which seems to have significant overlap.

edited 16th Apr '11 7:01:00 AM by ccoa

From what people are saying, I think there are two options:-

1. Call the trope Badass Nickname, cut out examples that don't seem meant to be badass (although I accept the point that this could be difficult to judge without knowing the context) and make sure the description makes it clear that this is for nicknames treated that way in the work itself. 2. Call it something like They Just Call Him the Red Baron or Everyone Knows His Nickname and make this a trope about people known more by nickname than real name. Cut any examples that don't seem to fit that.

Which would people prefer, or is there a third way?

I am not sure if 'Badass' is really important. I got the impression what really matter is the nickname is related to his feats and abilities. Even if the nickname is not 'badass', it still counts if it was given due to the character's accomplishments. Are these misuses still happening if you take that in account?

Then again, if the trope was supposed to be for characters who are more know for the nickname then for the actual name then I believe we have a problem regardless. Most of the examples I've come across didn't really fit this.

Do both options? As in split them among those lines. Badass Nickname and Well Known Nickname (when introduced they put the nickname first then real name or referred to by nickname only)

They can be both or they can be one or the other.

Example from Negima "The Thousand Master" Nagi Springfield would be both But Jack Rakan has many nicknames "The Thousand Blades" "The Invincible Idiot" "The Man You Can Stab With A Sword All You Want And It Won't Do A Damn Thing" All of which are pretty badass but only the first one falls under Option 2 with how it's used in series. And Negi Springfield's recent nickname of "The Thunder God" would fall under type 1 (although it might get used as type 2 in the future.) Eva's many many badass nicknames are used to scare little children in the same way the trope namer was used in France during WW 1 which would be both (unclear which one is exactly used.)

edited 16th Apr '11 8:25:34 AM by Raso

I think agree with that suggestion. Since both are perfectly fine tropes.

Most examples still apply to both suggestions, and while these two are not inherently subjective, splitting it now, by measuring all nickames' badassery and popularity one by one, would be a pain.

Just call it Red Baron Title, or something like that, and let it list all phrase-as-name personal titles, with a description stating that most of these try to sound really badass, and the character gets well-known by them.

Quite a few might be both but there are quite a few The Scrappy Nicknames that fall under type 2 only usually reserved for the Butt-Monkey that just don't get listed on the page.

Or ones that just fall under type 1

edited 16th Apr '11 8:44:39 AM by Raso