The Fighting Game topic

I mean, you're not typically going to get away from Calling Your Attacks in some way or another. Those audio cues are essential for the player experience.

Either way, I love Fighter Z, and I adore the way Fighter Z specifically dedicated itself to having as many references, and it has certainly impacted the way I design fighting games on my own, but that doesn't mean every adaptation from now on has be Fighter Z to be considered good.

Lavishly devoting the game to visual replication is not, nor should be considered, the only way to capture the essence of the comics and their experience - so I just can't get down with the idea that an NRS game (which, again, isn't something I'd guarantee they would do in the first place) would inherently be better to the comics just for having one very specific move and not doing anything original.

As I said, the reason MVC is considered so iconic isn't just nostalgia, but because it was a series that captured the spirit of the characters and spectacle of their world so well in a period where there weren't a lot of popular means of engaging many of those characters. Iron Man / War Machine pulling out a giant photon cannon isn't something you're liable to see often in the comics, but it became a classic because it meshed well with the image Marvel projected during the time. Hence - say - the most popular move in MVCI being a team-up move between Cap and Winter Soldier that isn't based on anything in particular, but captures the camaraderie of the characters.

This is, come to think, especially true for a fighting game based on something that isn't a manga. Part of the reason the concept of Fighter Z works so well for Dragonball is that Dragonball is based on a very specific line of arcs and moves, with characters having very specific roles, arcs and fighting styles exercised in very specific moments and events. It's specificity makes the concept of Fighter Z significantly more worthwhile than otherwise. However, that specificity is not present in something like Marvel, because Marvel - and other Western mainstream comic universes - is huge. Wolverine has had dozens of authors and artists, dozens of depictions of his fighting styles, dozens of conceptions of what his best abilities should be: because of this, not only does it become more of a strain to hunt down specific things to reference, it also means it's far more expected and accepted for a new installment or an adaptation to - then - exaggerate or downplay, stretch or reimagine, and otherwise do their own take on what makes the character fun, without that being considered a detriment. It's a feature of the concept.

Anywho, someone mentioned a few pages back about NRS (and Bamco, as it turns out) backing out of something called WePlay. Rooflemonger put out a video about it...

... and...

... oof. ^{the story} WePlay is a big but new fighting game tournament that's unfortunately being sponsored by a front for the Russian mafia, a front that has its feelers in other big eSports venues as well potentially leading to more pull-outs in the future

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 3rd 2021 at 12:52:32 PM

Oof indeed. And here I thought with 2020 behind us we could have a less controversial tournament year.

As for the gameplay thing, I have thoughts. One area where I do disagree with Max was the idea that MVC does a better job at depicting superpowers than NRS. I think they both do them in different ways that capture the spirit. Injustice doesn't have screen-filling Supers where dozens of beams or missiles are lobbed across the screen, but what they do have are damageable environments, multi-tiered stages and objects that can be interacted with in a way that I think would be cool to see done in a Marvel game. And of course many of the Super moves are ridiculous and over the top, just not in the same seizure-inducing anime way MVC's are.

I think that Netherrealm is good, specifically, at depicting superpowers below a certain spectacle threshhold, but that beyond that point they start running into trouble due to their typical gameplay style being very restricted in terms of movement, range of action and ability (Max - knowing Max's tendencies - likely also feels its limiting due to being lacking in options as well). Like trying to gram all of Guilty Gear into Street Fighter's mechanics.

Basically, Netherrealm's sweet spot is MK: their default gameplay style is basically made for martial artists with mild superpowers, and they didn't really change that default gameplay for Injustice so it has the same properties. So the Batman characters come off really well in that game, whereas everyone else relies heavily on their cutscenes to get the same effect.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 3rd 2021 at 7:16:13 AM

Ed Boon knows exactly what he's doing.

Jesus, that's one for the icebergs. I can't believe how much that sounds like a fighting game story. I guess fighting games are just going to have a bad rep no matter what.

Why I personally believe Capcom will still do a better job with Marvel characters mostly stems from Wolverine. It's not hard to believe NRS would give Logan something like Berserker Barrage & Swiss Cheese, capture his ferocious animal nature, & Berserker Charge as his Hero Trait button but would they give him something like Drill Claw & Tornado Claw & would his supers be anything like Fatal Claw or Weapon X? Also, I always have trouble remembering Berseker Slash since he doesn't say it as often.

That's not to downplay NRS because I'm pretty content with how Superman & Supergirl/Power Girl turned out, but for the life of me, I have trouble remembering what Supergirl's/Power Girl's moves are called without looking up them for the hundredth time. Also, I don't like that no one can fly at will just like Fighterz. That being said, I still like how Superman is this accessible & hard-hitting character like he should feel.

And regarding Calling Your Attacks trope, I'm sure that come across narmy for plenty of people but having your special moves being named & calling it out gives the characters a lot of identity. IMO, most 3D characters don't stand out as much as their 2D counterparts because there's nothing really that makes them stand out. I personally believe Soul Calibur is the best fighting game of all time, but I barely call Mitsurigi's launcher attack, Heaven Cannon instead of calling its input df/3 B. Bar-none the most iconic 3D special is the Electric Wind God Fist & none of the Mishima ever calls out the name. Although I'm sure plenty of people are going to argue that Paul's Phoenix Smasher is up there as well. This is also why I personally believe Terry is more iconic than Kyo. Kyo's special just has him smack talking in Japanese where Terry is screaming out on top of his lounge his attacks. His Gratuitous English probably also helps him stand out even more. That's not to say Calling Your Attacks makes you completely stand out & people have always had fan nicknames for special moves for the longest time. In MVC 3 Wesker never calls out his super move & people just dubbed it "Maximum Wesker".

What about Wildcat as a non-superhuman martial artist for DC’s side? He’s a pretty cool boxer.

Unless Boxing isn't popular, then I personally think Wildcat would be a pretty solid choice

Edited by agent-trunks on May 3rd 2021 at 11:24:09 AM

In a 15-minute video, ABI of Sugar Punch Design Works looks at the hatred towards Ingrid (Street Fighter), Lucky Chloe (Tekken), Marie Rose and Honoka (Dead of Alive). He analyzes the reasons for this dislike and gives his reasons for why it doesn't quite make sense.

Hey guys, seeing as Marvel VS DC is most likely finally happening after all these years, I’d like to throw my hat into the ring as far as Superhero/Comic Book Fighters go.

I’m... how do I put this... disappointed with Injustice’s combat, sure, they’re not bad games by any stretch of the imagination, they’re fun to both play and watch, but I always felt that there was something... off about how Injustice represents its characters, and this thread helped me finally put a finger on it.

My gripe with Injustice’s gameplay is that its representation of the DC Heroes was a tad bit... underwhelming, Badass Normal characters transition to its style pretty well, but everyone else feels a tad too weak and low key for the Physical God status they normally have in other media. By comparison, I feel that MVC does a pretty good job handling its characters and gameplay, sure there’s a few duds here and there (MVCI Black Panther, I’m looking at you), but it transitions its characters individual fighting styles into its own pretty well, especially when compared to some other licensed fighters.

And as for my dream DC Fighter, the words I’d use for it are “MVC meets KOF with more flying”, make of that if you will.

Edited by GeneralGigan on May 14th 2021 at 2:36:04 PM

I've always been of the opinion that Injustice is better for accuracy and references to the source material while MVC is better for gamefeel.

Dragon Ball FighterZ is the ideal, for me. An artstyle that replicates the source material, insane level of attention and detail to direct references that make the characters really feel like themselves in a way that MVC sometimes failed at, and the fast crazy gameplay that suits the characters and world.

×3

Wasn't it mainly the western fanbase that disliked Lucky Chloe?

All those characters were negatively recieved moreso in the West.

We just don't dig cutesy girls as much and in the case of Honoka/Marie Rose I feel there's perfectly sensible reasons not to enjoy them considering the game series they're in.

Edited by Vertigo_High on May 14th 2021 at 11:09:24 AM

Yeah Ingrid's hated for being a Original Generation crossover character who just randomly decided the main villain from Street Fighter drew his powers from her and Marie Rose is a walking joke about how great it it is to sexualize minors (She's from Sweden, which is a Take That! at the country for banning DOA games for having 16 and 17 year old Ayane and Kasumi walking around in fetish wear) while Honoka has the exact same face but has bigger boobs. There are pretty legit reasons to hate those characters as concepts.

Admittedly I have no such reason to dislike Lucky Chloe. Still don't like her though.

Edited by ShirowShirow on May 15th 2021 at 8:10:07 AM

Sopeak for yourself. I love cutesy girl characters in fighting games.

And Cutesy boys, too.

He's talking more about the sexualization of them, which, yeah, is really gross considering the artstyle in those games tend to the more realistic side compared to something like Blazblue. You can't really defend something like that without looking like a creep, sorry to say.

Well, I don't find it creepy since they are fictional.

If they were real life human beings, I'd find it creepy.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on May 15th 2021 at 10:16:05 AM

I never understood the hate on Ingrid to begin with. She never had anything that looks remotely controversial other than her design. I can also see her powers being off-putting as well & whatever that thing going on with her & the Pyscho Power. In comparison, if we're talking about the worst SF character that should've been Remy. He wangst about fighting because of his dad, his design is rip off Iori, & replaces the fan-favorite Guile & I never anyone whine about him in comparison to Ingrid.

Lucky Chloe was another predictable character that was gonna be hated on. If someone hates her design then I find it to be a legit complaint. And to go further on my high horse pretentious attitude, the only people that should have a problem with her in the Tekken community should be Eddy, Tiger, & Christie fans. As far as I'm concern she's no more offensive than Ling Xiaoyu.

I just don't get Honoka in general. I don't get what's so great about her & I don't see what's so bad about her? I personally like her mimic style she's got going on but I can see that off-putting because of how unoriginal can be. Honoka looks more on the generic side of DOA but that's always been DOA's problem & that's something I disagree with. I find everyone else designs, especially the women, to better design than Honoka. I don't see how that makes her more viable to be in more crossovers game. That's about the only thing I see wrong about Honoka otherwise, she's really not any worse or better than the rest of the DOA women. If anything I still find her better than Diego.

Marie Rose on the other hand is the opposite of that case. Her Jail Bait design is incredibly off-putting. That being said, I've seen a lot of people who unironically praise her for having a different design than the standard DOA one. I have to disagree because Rachel exists & Marie's design comes across as the bare minimum. I do find bait playstyle to be very innovative but I haven't come across a lot of people who want to main her. I'm also betting she's the reason why Nico became a thing. I also think Nico is a better character than Marie Rose if only because her personality is eons better than hers.

I'm not really sure why Sugar Punch didn't mention how all 4 characters have the same problem with their anime moeblob design, but this one of the few times I actually thought his video worth the watch. I still think it's valid to have problems with the designs & I know for the last decade are getting tired of the cutesy anime girl design but other than Marie Rose, the hatred of these characters has always come across to me as an overreaction.

The "Anime moeblob" design has always existed in fighting games, you know.

I'm aware of that. That's why I said, "As far as I'm concern she's no more offensive than Ling Xiaoyu." I might as well put Lili there as well. The same goes for the likes of Sakura & Karin.

So Blazblue? Because I'm pretty sure they're also going to simplify the moveset for Marvel VS DC if that was the case.

Not that really I care at the end of the day, but why wouldn't NRS ignore the comic books in favor of MCU? Especially knowing I2 Superman's Super is based what he did in Man of Steel

I actually really liked Ingrid the first time I got to play as her. She clicked with me and didnt seem out of place amongst the more eclectic members of the SF cast. But I didnt play Alpha 3 until its rerelease on the PSP.

I didn't play a lot of fighting games until I got MAME

Personally I don't take issue with Marie Rose that much aside from the sexualizing of her which they try to get around by saying she's merely a childish looking/acting 18 year old (lol), but with Honoka it's not just that but also how terribly she's written into the story. I just hate the idea of Honoka being a member of the Kasumi family.

Marie is creepy but Honoka just annoys me in both languages. I usually like Kira Buckland's voice acting but something about Honoka is just off-putting.

Anyway, rumor about the NRS game. It's almost certainly bullshit since it apparently originated on 4chan, but it's a slow news day. Personally, the big red flag about the veracity here (other than 4chan) is the claim about character licensing being an issue.

Edited by comicwriter on May 20th 2021 at 9:46:35 AM

If that really is the case then I'm really not looking forward NRS Marvel game. Not because I think it's going to be bad but because I know are going to compare to MVC. NRS is the new punching bag for the FGC & like what happened Capcom they're going to downplay the hell out of whatever pros the hypothetical NRS Marvel would have.

Is it because EVO planned to ban them? Wouldn't DOA also be a punching bag by that logic?

×3

That storyline does lends itself to a fighting game.

EVO planned to ban them? First I'm hearing of that.
...though yes, DoA is indeed a punching bag for that reason.

But otherwise the issue (YMMV) is that NRS games are regarded as less fun for spectators compared to other fighting games- partly due to how the games animate weirdly, and partly due to NRS being weird when it comes to balance and moveset design. Keepaway characters being able to make their projectiles unblockable, rushdown characters having combo strings with high/low mixups built into the attack animation, stuff like that.